Guns unbagged before firing point

[Malxwal]

There's a whole group of us that converge on the range socially, shooting is merely incidental to the banter. We all take the safety element very seriously, encourage and support anyone with marksmanship, reloading or guncare issues, and generally put the world to rights. Its not the place for anti social misfits who solely want to shoot

It's a case of "look after the pennies etc", if the safety isn't there, then none of us will be for long.

 

[Heym SR20]

“Stupid is as stupid does.”

What do I mean by this? I mean that all too often people follow a process without actually carrying out the actions it entails or understanding the reason they are doing it.

Rules at Bisley are bolt out &/or breach flag in when not on the firing line. Firearms in such condition can be carried to & from the firing line in a muzzle up position.

The exception to this is for gallery rifle disciplines where shooters keep firearms bagged & only unbag on the firing line when instructed to do so. Bagged firearms are considered to be safe despite the fact no-one can see whether the bolt is out or a breach flag is fitted.

A real life example of “Stupid is as stupid does”.

Gallery rifle shooter turns up to non GR event with rifle in bag & places bag on ground behind shooters on firing line. Shooter is then called to shoot so brings the bag up to the firing line & requests permission to unbag, which is given.

Shooter removes a 10/22 with working parts forward, ie bolt forward & hammer cocked, & magazine in place. Shooter then pulls cocking lever back & out pops a live round…

Shooter instructed to remove magazine which on inspection contains another 9 live rounds. Rifle is checked & safety is found to be off. So a ‘safe’ rifle in a bag was actually loaded & being carried without the safety applied.

Shooter had no idea why the rifle was loaded as “it was cleared at my club last time I used it two weeks ago”.

Dissecting the situation, the shooter was so used to doing things ‘parrot fashion’ that when his rifle had been cleared on the firing line & he'd been told to bag it, unseen by the RO who had moved in to clear the next shooter on the line, he put the magazine back in & let the working parts forward. The magazine he’d put in was his ‘spare’ that he kept loaded in case he needed to swap one midway through a course of fire because of feed failures etc. not one of his empty ones.

As far as everyone around him was concerned his rifle was ‘safe’ because it was in a bag. Had it been unbagged he would have had to have the working parts back & he’d have been required to put a breach flag in so all could see it was cleared.

That rifle was then transported to & put into the boot of his car before he drove home. When he got home he removed the bag & took it indoors before removing the rifle & putting it in his cabinet.

Two weeks later he removed the rifle & put it in the bag before putting into the boot of his car & driving to the range where he removed it & placed the bag behind his fellow shooters & pointing directly at them.

OK he should have checked the rifle when taking out of the bag & putting it in the gun cabinet at home but he didn’t because he had been indoctrinated that a bagged rifle is a safe rifle… so too had all the shooters around him.

This happened when I was RO at a club event some years ago & it is why I cringe every time I get a rifle brought to the firing line in a bag.

Just because a firearm is bagged does not make it safe!

Bolt out &/or breach flag in & carry it muzzle upwards.

Quite. Most firearms accidents happen with “unloaded” guns.

There is no such thing as a gun made safe. A gun is always loaded.

If you work on that basis you will never go wrong.

With novice shots I also like to shoot a cartridge into soft ground. I then ask them compare the ground to a human body and have a look at the hole, stick their fingers into etc etc. and imagine such a hole through their friend and how you would try and stem the bleeding for the hour it would take to get them to hospital.

Yet I have seen really stupid things,

I was once handed a Blaser in 300 win mag as the owner pulled it out of his truck. He asked me to pop it inside the house as he unloaded a couple of deer from the truck.

I took it inside, opened the bolt, out popped a live round, mag was full so emptied that. Left it on the table bolt open and handed the rounds back to the owner.

He was furious- it’s a Blaser it’s totally safe. He always keep it loaded even when driving the length of the country.

Mmm

 

[bottletopbill]

I was understanding that this was illegal to have a magazine loaded even when out of the rifle.
Some members of my club said you can not travel with a loaded rifle magazine in my car to and through.
any one no where it states this

 

[Heym SR20]

I was understanding that this was illegal to have a magazine loaded even when out of the rifle.

Nope not illegal. Its perfectly legal to have a loaded firearm in a public place. No difference in law between the field or wood or the high street. If you inconvenience a user of the highway then that’s an offence.

 

[enfieldspares]

I was understanding that this was illegal to have a magazine loaded even when out of the rifle.
Some members of my club said you can not travel with a loaded rifle magazine in my car to and through.
any one no where it states this

1968 Firearms Act. Section 19. So with a rifle it makes no difference where the ammunition is.

19​

A person commits an offence if, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on him) he has with him in a public place

[F1(a)a loaded shot gun,

(b)an air weapon (whether loaded or not),

(c)any other firearm (whether loaded or not) together with ammunition suitable for use in that firearm, or

(d)an imitation firearm.]

 

[Jim Hutton]

HNY...

Last autumn I went along to an open day for a shooting club. Folk seemed nice enough and it was reasonably well organised. I had a couple of things that are niggling me and thus preventing me from submitting an application to join.

1) rifles were unbagged well behind the firing point, and we're carried to and from it before and after being used. Most had flags in but a few didn't. Add to that, some members were sitting with their rifles at their feet. Some in open bags. Some on a bipod with cover. Others just lying on the ground. There seemed to be guns on show everywhere.

2) the number of people hanging around the shooting lane seemed a lot, maybe 25-30 mixture of randomers and a handful of club members. Add in the number of guns, ammo lying around and being in the 600yrd range at Bisley, the whole thing was somewhat uncomfortable.

I will admit, my current club is red hot on firing point discipline and would never allow guns unbagged before the FP. In fact, we did a Warminster shoot recently and we had a full safety briefing, the RO was great, things were strict and tight. It seemed fully controlled unlike my experience at Bisley.

I don't particularly like being around random people with guns anyway, so experiencing this open day was somewhat nerving for me. The problem is I've moved 2.5 hours from my existing club and whilst I'll be able to shoot there occasionally, I'd really like to keep up the regularity with a more local club, which is proving very difficult owing to very few in my area who do full bore.

My question: am I being too pedantic, overthinking, and unrealistic - do other clubs shoot like this? Or am I right to be cautious and consider their people and gun control on this occasion may not have been up to scratch.

I'm not an expert so I'm not saying how the club should or shouldn't be run. I'm also not suggesting illegality. I'm trying to understand if my expectations are unrealistic!

Many thanks indeed advance.

I agree. I don’t like people fiddling with rifles behind me. You just don’t know what they are doing. Bag and unbag bag at the firing point for me.

 

[bottletopbill]

Agree also we do not know if every shooter is safe.
Should be one rule for every type of shooting so every one is on that level

 

[VSS]

I'd rather see an unloaded gun out of a case (and be able to check if neccessary) than a gun of unknown (and uncheckable) status in a case.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Here in Germany on the few small game drives I have been on the shotguns all have sling swivels fitted so they are carried over the shoulder broken between stands, all can see that they are safe.
With rifles there are so many different actions it is hard to tell if loaded or not, the sling carry is usually with one hand holding the muzzle up at 45 degrees so that the hunter always has control of where it is pointing.
This not like being on the Scottish rough stuff though.

 

[User00056]

None of this puts me up nor down. Unless I actually unsafe practices I tend to assume my fellow guns know what they're doing. I don't use ranges, nor am I a member of any club. If I were though, I'd ensure I was familiar with, and abided by whatever rules were in place.

 

[One on top of two]

Christ I'm glad i packed in all the club rubbish

 

[webley701]

I know. It still makes me uncomfortable

I appreciate you are familiar with the procedure but others may not know the background to such squadding arrangements - hence the brief explanation of echelon range use puts your concerns into perspective for them.

 

[timbrayford]

It's a case of "look after the pennies etc", if the safety isn't there, then none of us will be for long.

I believe that I mentioned safety, social misfits that lack interpersonal skills attend the range on a different day, fortunately!

 

[Malxwal]

I believe that I mentioned safety, social misfits that lack interpersonal skills attend the range on a different day, fortunately!

I agreed entirely with you, apologies if that wasn't clear.

 

[Heym SR20]

I really enjoy our range days with the club. Our range is in a truly wonderful spot, nothing better than meeting up with a bunch like minded individuals, some are good friends, many are not yet but they will be. Lots of chat and a bit of shooting.

There was discussion about guest days on another thread. We don’t have them. We do have potential club members coming along occasionally.

As to range orders and range officers we like to keep it relaxed, but rifles are not fiddled with behind the firing point, rifles remain with bolts out unless and until they are on the firing point and RO gives the the instructions to put them in.

When finished shooting bolts removed, magazines out and all checked by RO as clear. Then back into case and they are too one side or back in the car.

 

[DavieC200]

https://www.nscbisley.co.uk/media/03oboywo/20240321-bisley-ranges-regulations-v30-2024.pdf

 

[Overlay]

You wouldn’t get away with a gun case open behind the FP in the club I shoot with, on the army ranges all guns cased on the FP whether in the foxhole or prone, when finished bolt out, show the RCO and bag it, not rocket science just be safe, if their safety doesn’t come inline with yours stay with your original club and feel safe and tell them why you won’t consider joining

 

[urban]

My son and I carried two rifles into the clubhouse at the Christmas shoot this year (at Bisley). One had bolt out, other was flagged because it's not practicable to remove the bolt. Both carried vertically. We were bagging up the guns in the boot of the car later when someone from in the clubhouse approached us and reprimanded us for unbagged guns in the clubhouse. Strange thing is that I am an RCO at that club and know most of the members by sight yet have no clue who he was. I also know that the Bisley range regs allow bolt-out/flagged carry. I didn't argue - just thanked him for his concern. People are strange, and shooters like to make up rules that don't exist (like not carrying loaded mags in the car).

Regarding the negligent discharges at Bisley - the one I know about was, as previously mentioned, a rifle that had been cleared on the firing point. The owner inserted magazine and bolt, and fired off the action in the boot of his car. Unfortunately he didn't check that the magazine was empty before doing so. Inserting the mag is understandable to me, it's what I do to avoid losing it. But the bolt?! and firing it off?! incomprehensible to me why anyone would do that. My rifles are transported bolts out or flagged, and firing off the action only gets done either when the muzzle is pointing at the stop butt or (after additional checks and with live ammo locked away) at home if I'm testing.

 

[Klenchblaize]

I'm guessing the firing of the rifle on what was assumed to be an empty chamber relates to a desire to remove bolt spring tension. There is clearly a better way to achieve this with the bolt away from the rifle.

K

 

[Bavarianbrit]

I thumb the chamber to check empty as my rifles have fixed mags so visual that the mags are empty then trigger held as in pulled position on a closed but not swung down bolt then wswing down bolt and spring tension is slowly released. All this with muzzle in a very safe direction. This was how I was taught CF handling on my Jagdschein course. I had done over 20 years of UK .22lr small bore prone before that in Deal Kents clubhouse which worked differently but was still safe.