Lead - EU Reach Meeting/Proposal

[Smellydog]

There are technical reasons why what you post wouldn’t work given U.K. deer legal energy etc

Not only that but I bet that link is in association with inlines and not traditional muzzleloaders.

Why the hell would someone wishing to use a traditional muzzleloader not use it's traditional bullets or ball!

It would be like buying a 1920's Bentley and fitting a dpf, egr, fuel injection and electronic ignition! It's no longer original negating the whole concept.

The very idea of issuing get around to enable sticking to a dictat not only is nauseating but frankly smacks of draconic socialism!

 

[Smellydog]

I don’t agree there either. The processes for making bullets using lead cores are completely different to the manufacture of copper, you can make one or the other on a production line but not both, and can’t easily transition from one to the other. That is focusing minds since Trump came to power and the Ukraine kicked off. So not hypocrisy, pure practicality in face of a change of circumstances.
About time too.
The interesting one to watch is the lead shot ban, if only one country had told the EU to go away it would be very easy to force the directive through, but 7 countries is too big a bloc to be either bullied or ignored.
I’m watching with interest.

I didn't mean hypocrisy from that angle.

I meant that due to world events such as people killing other people in war means all of a sudden lead ammunition is ok.
It gives even more substance behind the suggested hidden agenda.
The world has been taken over by leftists that in an ideal world they want to limit freedoms, especially those of the hunter in this case.
When the **** hits the fan they want us all to die for the cause!! The cause they would spout is err, freedom!!!

 

[Heym SR20]

There are technical reasons why what you post wouldn’t work given U.K. deer legal energy etc

If it’s that much of an issue, how are getting deer legal muzzle energies out of a lead bullet?

A typical .50 cal round ball weighs about 180 grains. You would need to propel that at about 2,100 fps to meet minimum of 1,700 ft lbs for bigger deer.

Or if move up to a 300 grain bullet then you need about 1,650 fps to meet minimum muzzle energy specs.

Up here in Scotland, little chance of getting a muzzle loading rifle authorised for deer as we have a minimum of 2450 fps muzzle velocity as well as ME requirements.

 

[Smellydog]

If it’s that much of an issue, how are getting deer legal muzzle energies out of a lead bullet?

A typical .50 cal round ball weighs about 180 grains. You would need to propel that at about 2,100 fps to meet minimum of 1,700 ft lbs for bigger deer.

Or if move up to a 300 grain bullet then you need about 1,650 fps to meet minimum muzzle energy specs.

Up here in Scotland, little chance of getting a muzzle loading rifle authorised for deer as we have a minimum of 2450 fps muzzle velocity as well as ME requirements.

In England there is no velocity requirements.
Some traditional.50 muzzleloader rifles shoot conicals much heavier than a ball.

Ye knows little, just enough so to support your argument but fails miserably.

 

[enfieldspares]

In England there is no velocity requirements.
Some traditional.50 muzzleloader rifles shoot conicals much heavier than a ball.

Ye knows little, just enough so to support your argument but fails miserably.

Correct. I knew a man who some now thirty-five years ago had a .451" Whitworth on his FAC and conditioned for use on deer. For, as said, there is no velocity requirement in England. He used traditional paper patched bullets.

 

[palmer_mike]

If it’s that much of an issue, how are getting deer legal muzzle energies out of a lead bullet?

A typical .50 cal round ball weighs about 180 grains. You would need to propel that at about 2,100 fps to meet minimum of 1,700 ft lbs for bigger deer.

Or if move up to a 300 grain bullet then you need about 1,650 fps to meet minimum muzzle energy specs.

Up here in Scotland, little chance of getting a muzzle loading rifle authorised for deer as we have a minimum of 2450 fps muzzle velocity as well as ME requirements.

As I said, I can’t be bothered to get into it with you but suffice to say SDs post #64 on this thread pretty much covers it

 

[enfieldspares]

As I said, I can’t be bothered to get into it with you but suffice to say SDs post #64 on this thread pretty much covers it

Indeed it is one of those odd things that a expensive side by side double rifle by Holland & Holland in their .600 Nitro Express chambering, once the world's supposed "ultimate" dangerous game round for the African big five of elephant, lion, leopard, Cape buffalo and rhinocerous would be illegal in Scotland for even the smallest of roe deer.

 

[Dunwaters]

I didn't mean hypocrisy from that angle.

I meant that due to world events such as people killing other people in war means all of a sudden lead ammunition is ok.
It gives even more substance behind the suggested hidden agenda.
The world has been taken over by leftists that in an ideal world they want to limit freedoms, especially those of the hunter in this case.
When the **** hits the fan they want us all to die for the cause!! The cause they would spout is err, freedom!!!

They’re not saying it’s okay, they’re saying that theres a conflict between the Environmental demand for non lead ammunition, production capabilities and strategic defence requirements.
Keeping lead is the least damaging alternative.
I think its called “ pragmatism”.

 

[Liveonce]

If you read the minister’s reasoning behind the total lead ban, you will find there is very little trust that the shooting community wouldn’t simply use lead cartridges for clay pigeon shooting when shooting wild birds and in places where lead shot couldn’t be recovered and prevented from entering the wider environment.

She cited the continued use of lead in shot wildfowl, despite the prohibition of using lead on wildfowl (in England) and over wetlands (in Scotland).

For this reason there is now a total ban on the sale of lead shot and cartridges loaded with lead shot, save for a very limited derogation for olympic class athletes who need to train for international competition.

There is plenty of lead in crops grown for food. This almost entirely comes from human environmental polution. Lead in petrol and from industrial processes was previously a major contributor. Lead shot is also widely use across agricultural land on which crops are grown. Doesn’t take a maths genius to work out how much lead is spread over the land used by a shoot each day of shooting.

Besides the EU is also imposing an EU wide ban on lead shot.

Then why single out lead shot may still be used for live quarry shooting but not that lead rifle ammunition labelled for target shooting only will not be used for live quarry.

Sorry it stinks of hidden agenda by a certain shooting organisation and since when have MPs been such a group of angels, they are hardly to be trusted.

 

[Kalahari]

There are claims by "interested" parties of huge numbers of birds dying of wildfowling lead pollution but precious little hard evidence. Make of that what you will.

David.

 

[Liveonce]

Not being funny it’s the same argument that’s been rolling on and on and on, for years and it’s not going to change, it’s coming so get your head around it, or keep your gob shut and get on with it.

Will do, i and many others will litter the countryside with thousands of single use plastic wads that will be in the environment for hundreds of years but that’s progress.

 

[Dunwaters]

Then why single out lead shot may still be used for live quarry shooting but not that lead rifle ammunition labelled for target shooting only will not be used for live quarry.

Because lead shot fired at live quarry is the commonest form of lead ammunition and is proven to be both toxic to and commonly consumed by wildlife, specifically birds with gizzards that pick it up and swallow it both as grit and for food.
Lead rifle ammunition poses a completely different threat to a different type of bird. Generally the projectile is too big to be consumed directly, the micro particles of lead adjacent to the wound channel are consumed with the meat and offal and are toxic to birds of prey in relatively small doses. This is why falconers won’t feed lead shot meat to their birds.

Sorry it stinks of hidden agenda by a certain shooting organisation and since when have MPs been such a group of angels, they are hardly to be trusted.

A conspiracy between politicians and a shooting organisation?
Please elaborate, we’re all dying to know more.

 

[Liveonce]

Because lead shot fired at live quarry is the commonest form of lead ammunition and is proven to be both toxic to and commonly consumed by wildlife, specifically birds with gizzards that pick it up and swallow it both as grit and for food.
Lead rifle ammunition poses a completely different threat to a different type of bird. Generally the projectile is too big to be consumed directly, the micro particles of lead adjacent to the wound channel are consumed with the meat and offal and are toxic to birds of prey in relatively small doses. This is why falconers won’t feed lead shot meat to their birds.

A conspiracy between politicians and a shooting organisation?
Please elaborate, we’re all dying to know more.

But not true on “proper” clay grounds, the one i regularly shoot at has lots of birds and buzzards and has thousands of tonne of lead shot all over it. Have never over what 40 years picked up a dead bird on the ground.
But i was question the trust issue, trust that target riffle ammo will not be used to shoot live quarry just because a label on a box says so. So why not just do the same for lead shot cartridges used at clay shooting and restrict the shot size to number 9 and 8.

And let’s not forget elite athletes lead shot will some how magically not be toxic.

It crap legislation to try and make game shooting sustainable.

The clay ground i shoot as also has an airgun and rifle range so lead will continue on it and the tonnes of lead shot will remain on the ground, but i wager you if you walk the ground you will not find any. Yet come three years when we can no longer use fibre wads we will litter the ground with thousands and thousands of plastic wads.

Hardly good for the wild life or environment.

This country is ****ed.

 

[Liveonce]

A conspiracy between politicians and a shooting organisation?
Please elaborate, we’re all dying to know more.

Then ask BASC to see their council meeting minutes, where all except the discussions on lead are readable but anything to do with lead is marked in confidence.

 

[Dunwaters]

But not true on “proper” clay grounds, the one i regularly shoot at has lots of birds and buzzards and has thousands of tonne of lead shot all over it. Have never over what 40 years picked up a dead bird on the ground.
But i was question the trust issue, trust that target riffle ammo will not be used to shoot live quarry just because a label on a box says so. So why not just do the same for lead shot cartridges used at clay shooting and restrict the shot size to number 9 and 8.

And let’s not forget elite athletes lead shot will some how magically not be toxic.

It crap legislation to try and make game shooting sustainable.

The clay ground i shoot as also has an airgun and rifle range so lead will continue on it and the tonnes of lead shot will remain on the ground, but i wager you if you walk the ground you will not find any. Yet come three years when we can no longer use fibre wads we will litter the ground with thousands and thousands of plastic wads.

Hardly good for the wild life or environment.

This country is ****ed.

Then ask BASC to see their council meeting minutes, where all except the discussions on lead are readable but anything to do with lead is marked in confidence.

All old ground well harrowed on a hundred previous threads.
You have your mind made up, I’m not going to try to change it.

 

[Liveonce]

All old ground well harrowed on a hundred previous threads.
You have your mind made up, I’m not going to try to change it.

indeed no point going over it all again, however lead shot for clay shooting was thrown under a bus by shooting organisation/s to fulfil other agenda, after the total failure of the five year voluntary transition.

Going to be very interesting come the expect ban in 2029 the consequences could be hard hitting for recreational shooting in the U.K. lead shot in particular especially if the EU ban is pushed back until 2031 or later.

But hopefully China will sell us some shot, at a price.

 

[Smellydog]

My advice to you all is get a muzzleloader. You can make your own solutions for them!

 

[Dunwaters]

indeed no point going over it all again, however lead shot for clay shooting was thrown under a bus by shooting organisation/s to fulfil other agenda, after the total failure of the five year voluntary transition.

Not so, what killed lead shot for clays was the fact that it continues to be used to shoot duck years after it was banned and a thousand comments on social media by people stating that they would continue to use lead regardless of the law for as long as it was available.
The 5 year transition was a disaster for a number of reasons, with more than enough blame to go around.

Going to be very interesting come the expect ban in 2029 the consequences could be hard hitting for recreational shooting in the U.K. lead shot in particular especially if the EU ban is pushed back until 2031 or later.

Yes, you are ploughing your own furrow, you seem to be about 18 months behind the EU in realising that the world has changed.
Get your ammunition makers to talk to your Dept of Defence and then get UK REACH into the room.

But hopefully China will sell us some shot, at a price.

Don’t worry, someone will sell you some.
Maybe depleted Iranian Uranium?

 

[Liveonce]

Not so, what killed lead shot for clays was the fact that it continues to be used to shoot duck years after it was banned and a thousand comments on social media by people stating that they would continue to use lead regardless of the law for as long as it was available.
The 5 year transition was a disaster for a number of reasons, with more than enough blame to go around.


Yes, you are ploughing your own furrow, you seem to be about 18 months behind the EU in realising that the world has changed.
Get your ammunition makers to talk to your Dept of Defence and then get UK REACH into the room.

Don’t worry, someone will sell you some.
Maybe depleted Iranian Uranium?

If true that ducks were shot with lead then why was the law not used to prosecute the offenders, rather than penalise all
after all we do not ban driving for all, for those who chose to speed. Not a good enough reason is it?

Do explain why the five year transition failed? other that game shooters were effectively no better than those you claim continued to use lead shot to kill ducks.

Nope not 18months behind the EU, they are being far more realistic about the state of the world and the security threat.
And yes realising the current state of the world has priced Bismuth and TSS shot out of the game.

What’s depleted Iranian Uranium has to do with the situation is going a little far however likely much better that steel shot, for which rather than several lead shot manufacturers we will be totally dependent on China.

 

[Smellydog]

It amazes me how some are happy for China to supply us with lead shot alternatives because of some imagined virtue flag in their tiny minds while China doesn't mind arming despots around the world who then go on to murder thousands!
Absolute ws