Lead - EU Reach Meeting/Proposal

[Liveonce]

It amazes me how some are happy for China to supply us with lead shot alternatives because of some imagined virtue flag in their tiny minds while China doesn't mind arming despots around the world who then go on to murder thousands!
Absolute ws

very true, and to think steel shot is more environmentally friendly is to ignore the extra CO2 produced given how much more energy is need to manufacture it and then ship it across the world.

 

[nf-fuse]

If there is no safe level of lead why can shoot a munty with a 223 lead and not 243 lead.

Why is rimfire not lead free or air guns. Both shoot way more quarry and more weight of lead then centre fires.

Blatant bollocks isn't it.

 

[Dunwaters]

If true that ducks were shot with lead then why was the law not used to prosecute the offenders, rather than penalise all
after all we do not ban driving for all, for those who chose to speed. Not a good enough reason is it?

I don’t know, a complete lack of enforcement would be a large part of the equation. But you have to admit that it didn’t look good when Wild Justice were able to buy wild ducks off a supermarket shelf and find that over 90% ( from memory ) of them had been shot with lead at least a decade after shooting ducks with lead had been banned.

Do explain why the five year transition failed? other that game shooters were effectively no better than those you claim continued to use lead shot to kill ducks.

My view and my view only. The ban failed primarily because of a failure to buy in by both the game dealers and the large commercial shoots. BASC are also to blame, they don’t appear to have put in place any mechanism to monitor progress, success or failure. Lastly BASC were running a solo campaign, none of the other shooting organisations rowed in behind the campaign.

Nope not 18months behind the EU, they are being far more realistic about the state of the world and the security threat.
And yes realising the current state of the world has priced Bismuth and TSS shot out of the game.

Your programme is well behind the EU when it comes to considering consequences and reacting. At the moment you are ahead in your implementation plans.

What’s depleted Iranian Uranium has to do with the situation is going a little far however likely much better that steel shot, for which rather than several lead shot manufacturers we will be totally dependent on China.

That wuz a joke, you’re already utterly dependant on China. As is the rest of the Western Hemisphere.

 

[Liveonce]

I don’t know, a complete lack of enforcement would be a large part of the equation. But you have to admit that it didn’t look good when Wild Justice were able to buy wild ducks off a supermarket shelf and find that over 90% ( from memory ) of them had been shot with lead at least a decade after shooting ducks with lead had been banned.

My view and my view only. The ban failed primarily because of a failure to buy in by both the game dealers and the large commercial shoots. BASC are also to blame, they don’t appear to have put in place any mechanism to monitor progress, success or failure. Lastly BASC were running a solo campaign, none of the other shooting organisations rowed in behind the campaign.

Your programme is well behind the EU when it comes to considering consequences and reacting. At the moment you are ahead in your implementation plans.

That wuz a joke, you’re already utterly dependant on China. As is the rest of the Western Hemisphere.

Duck can still be shot with lead in Scotland, so without knowing where it was shot the observation is irrelevant.
Enforce the law.

We are not utterly dependant on China at this time, all shotgun components can be sourced from within the EU from the EU manufactures and some are even manufactured within the U.K. Steel shot being one exception which is imported from China.

 

[Dunwaters]

Duck can still be shot with lead in Scotland, so without knowing where it was shot the observation is irrelevant.
Enforce the law.

Is Scotland supplying around 90% of supermarket wild duck?
You can chase this around the house for as long as you like, we have been, and continue to be, our own worst enemy on this subject. Thats my view, and like you, I’m not changing it.

We are not utterly dependant on China at this time, all shotgun components can be sourced from within the EU from the EU manufactures and some are even manufactured within the U.K. Steel shot being one exception which is imported from China.

You absolutely are, just about every single item in your household is either completely manufactured in China, or contains Chinese components. What few bits don’t come from China have come from India or Indonesia.
Where do you think all your manufacturing industries went?
Shotgun ammo is the very least of our concerns.

 

[Liveonce]

Is Scotland supplying around 90% of supermarket wild duck?
You can chase this around the house for as long as you like, we have been, and continue to be, our own worst enemy on this subject. Thats my view, and like you, I’m not changing it.

You absolutely are, just about every single item in your household is either completely manufactured in China, or contains Chinese components. What few bits don’t come from China have come from India or Indonesia.
Where do you think all your manufacturing industries went?
Shotgun ammo is the very least of our concerns.

So what is the point of a law if it’s not enforced? Poor enforcement is no excuse to then bring in prohibition on the law abiding.

Totally irrelevant comparing soft toys or such to shotgun shot and having all your eggs in one basket.

At the very least at least have more than one country manufacturing the shot, as we do now for lead, could you see Trump agreeing with such a policy.

 

[enfieldspares]

I don’t know, a complete lack of enforcement would be a large part of the equation. But you have to admit that it didn’t look good when Wild Justice were able to buy wild ducks off a supermarket shelf and find that over 90% ( from memory ) of them had been shot with lead at least a decade after shooting ducks with lead had been banned.

They may have been shot in Scotland, where lead shot for wildfowl is still legal under some circumstances - especially on a duck drive on a pheasant shoot - and then sold in England as is perfectly legal. So yes WJ could buy them but did they then ascertain the origin of the duck? As in were they shot in Scotland? I am sure that I could buy shot wild duck in Berwick upon Tweed which is ENGLAND and find them shot with lead and so tick the box that I sought to tick to "prove" the point I wanted to make.

 

[Liveonce]

WJ will not go away just because we stop using lead, they hate the idea of rearing non native game by the millions to be shot at as a flying target. game that is doing more environmental harm to the floria and fauna than lead shot will ever do round a small area occupied for clay shooting,

already on the agenda is licences for game shoots and personally I think that is a good idea.

WJ are going to keep pushing for the end of game shooting.

Gamebirds – Wild Justice

wildjustice.org.uk

 

[Dunwaters]

So what is the point of a law if it’s not enforced? Poor enforcement is no excuse to then bring in prohibition on the law abiding.

Totally irrelevant comparing soft toys or such to shotgun shot and having all your eggs in one basket.

At the very least at least have more than one country manufacturing the shot, as we do now for lead, could you see Trump agreeing with such a policy.

I’ve been following the proposals to ban lead ammunition for close on 5 decades. The one thing that has not changed is the Lead Head refusal to change and their resistance to evidence .
You asked about the voluntary ban, one of the things that sank it was the lack of enforcement of the existing regulations.
You reference soft toys, you ignore the level of dependence on imported products.
Europe is incapable of producing a basic uniform and boots for its armed forces without imports.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

I’ve been following the proposals to ban lead ammunition for close on 5 decades. The one thing that has not changed is the Lead Head refusal to change and their resistance to evidence .
You asked about the voluntary ban, one of the things that sank it was the lack of enforcement of the existing regulations.
You reference soft toys, you ignore the level of dependence on imported products.
Europe is incapable of producing a basic uniform and boots for its armed forces without imports.

But the opposition aren't providing evidence applicable to the UK? They're basing their research from an entirely different country and an extremely woke area at that...

There is no evidence applicable to the UK because it just doesn't exist and until someone can show otherwise, all it's screaming is another nail in the coffin.

I'll take a good structured argument and think of my own actions/actions in the future but it currently doesn't exist. This ban serves nothing more than stopping shooting and given that is the agenda behind it, you're dam right some argue tooth and nail over it.

 

[enfieldspares]

But the opposition aren't providing evidence applicable to the UK? They're basing their research from an entirely different country and an extremely woke area at that...

There is no evidence applicable to the UK because it just doesn't exist and until someone can show otherwise, all it's screaming is another nail in the coffin.

I'll take a good structured argument and think of my own actions/actions in the future but it currently doesn't exist. This ban serves nothing more than stopping shooting and given that is the agenda behind it, you're dam right some argue tooth and nail over it.

But 'tis a fact that we use lead in the UK and that there are no North America condors in the UK. Therefore when we ban lead we will see North American condors in the UK. As HENDRIX'S RIFLE says the logic used by many of 2+2=4 isn't UK applicable.

And nowhere have I seen an environmental impact study in the production of steel shot in China nor or its then transport to the UK because as far as the anti-lead agenda for lead shot for clay and for gam goes "out if site is out of mind".

And if that means another Lake Baikal (but in China) then "so what" as the "poor wee partridges" here in the UK will now all thrive even through the wettest of July downpours because it isn't the sudden unseasonal wet that killed them it's the minefields of lead shot from last year's shooting.

 

[Dunwaters]

But the opposition aren't providing evidence applicable to the UK? They're basing their research from an entirely different country and an extremely woke area at that...

There is no evidence applicable to the UK because it just doesn't exist and until someone can show otherwise, all it's screaming is another nail in the coffin.

I'll take a good structured argument and think of my own actions/actions in the future but it currently doesn't exist. This ban serves nothing more than stopping shooting and given that is the agenda behind it, you're dam right some argue tooth and nail over it.

Give it a break will ya?
The evidence is actually more applicable to the UK because of the amount of driven shooting than the rest of Europe / USA / Canada where low volume walked up is more usual.

 

[Dave_45]

Thing is .... I really like copper bullets now in 6mm upwards

I have a 243 1-8 and it quite impressed me with Barnes 80gr ttsx.

Shoulder shooting red deer at distance with 0 issues.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

Give it a break will ya?
The evidence is actually more applicable to the UK because of the amount of driven shooting than the rest of Europe / USA / Canada where low volume walked up is more usual.

Once again, show the proof and I'll change. Its dead easy

 

[Liveonce]

I’ve been following the proposals to ban lead ammunition for close on 5 decades. The one thing that has not changed is the Lead Head refusal to change and their resistance to evidence .
You asked about the voluntary ban, one of the things that sank it was the lack of enforcement of the existing regulations.
You reference soft toys, you ignore the level of dependence on imported products.
Europe is incapable of producing a basic uniform and boots for its armed forces without imports.

I am not against a ban of lead shot for live quarry shooting, what i do object to is s ban for clay shooting for

1) because the current laws on using lead ammunition are not enforced.
2) the stupid idea of elite atheists lead shot is not toxic
3) bonafide clay grounds operate over a fixed relatively tiny area of land, so risks can be managed, like outdoor ranges.
4) limit the shot size to that of 9 or 8 which is no different in principle to that of lead is ok up to .243
5) the belief all the issues with game shooting are solved if lead shot is banned.

 

[Liveonce]

Europe is incapable of producing a basic uniform and boots for its armed forces without imports.

unfortunately true and a reflection of how this country is no longer GREAT.

 

[timbrayford]

I am not against a ban of lead shot for live quarry shooting, what i do object to is s ban for clay shooting for

1) because the current laws on using lead ammunition are not enforced.
2) the stupid idea of elite atheists lead shot is not toxic
3) bonafide clay grounds operate over a fixed relatively tiny area of land, so risks can be managed, like outdoor ranges.
4) limit the shot size to that of 9 or 8 which is no different in principle to that of lead is ok up to .243
5) the belief all the issues with game shooting are solved if lead shot is banned.

Existing clay grounds must already by now be bearing a heavy load of spent shot making any such ban irrelevant. Funnily enough though the ground that I go to is rich in bird and other wildlife, you'd think that if the Swift/WJ hypothesis is correct it should be a barren wasteland instead?

 

[Dunwaters]

Once again, show the proof and I'll change. Its dead easy

You’ve had the proof, hundreds of pages of it with studies going back over 100 years, you reject all of it.
Imagine that, hundreds of studies with thousands of authors and contributors all reaching similar conclusions but you know better.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

You’ve had the proof, hundreds of pages of it with studies going back over 100 years, you reject all of it.
Imagine that, hundreds of studies with thousands of authors and contributors all reaching similar conclusions but you know better.

No, there is 0 proof on those. Show me a single person that had lead poisoning in the UK from eating lead shot game.

You can't.

Because it doesn't exist. And thats fact. There's no record of it ever happening over here. You're at higher risk of getting hit by a car or even dieing from the exhaust fumes from vehicles. Hell, you're probably at higher risk being attacked by a bloody shark over here than that!

 

[Liveonce]

You’ve had the proof, hundreds of pages of it with studies going back over 100 years, you reject all of it.
Imagine that, hundreds of studies with thousands of authors and contributors all reaching similar conclusions but you know better.

On your side to ban lead shot for live quarry shooting but it’s not justifiable for clay shooting.

Then once the risk to human health has been removed due to lead, we really do need to do the next logical risk and ban smoking and alcohol, just think how many lives a year that would save and the benefit to the NHS.