‚Non-toxic‘

[Steff]

I find it very irritating when people call non-lead ammunition ‚non-toxic‘.

The use of this term is an unreflected repetition of the phrasing used by folks who oppose shooting and stalking in general. By doing so you are playing into their hands!

Call it what it is please. Copper, brass, steel, whatever, but not non-toxic.

 

[distantcamera]

Given that copper is toxic I’m inclined to agree. Why not just call it lead-free?

 

[Scipio]

Given that copper is toxic I’m inclined to agree. Why not just call it lead-free?

this is what it is called in Denmark, Blyfri (leadfree) and in german as well i think the commonly used term is leadfree.

 

[WW.]

Spot on.

 

[Steff]

this is what it is called in Denmark, Blyfri (leadfree) and in german as well i think the commonly used term is leadfree.

Yes we call them lead-free in Germany as well.

 

[HonestJohn]

I think non-toxic is being used more and more due to risk of stating lead free, when there’s lead in the primer.

 

[Steff]

I think non-toxic is being used more and more due to risk of stating lead free, when there’s lead in the primer.

Only the most pedantic people will have the primer on the screen at all in this context. 'Lead-free' refers exclusively to the bullet material. As we have heard the Danish and the Germans use it as well as the French (sans plomb).

My perception is that the use of 'non-toxic' is rather a sign of overeagerness to comply.

 

[HonestJohn]

Only the most pedantic people will have the primer on the screen at all in this context. 'Lead-free' refers exclusively to the bullet material. As we have heard the Danish and the Germans use it as well as the French (sans plomb).

My perception is that the use of 'non-toxic' is rather a sign of overeagerness to comply.

There’s that, and then there’s the marketing angle that hopes to make it seem more attractive and user friendly by an appeal to emotion sort of thing.

 

[Smellydog]

I'd prefer to call it bull**** ammunition.

 

[Steff]

I'd prefer to call it bull**** ammunition.

Ah, I don’t care really. As long as it has a proper name.

 

[distantcamera]

Bull**** is a bit course. And also, don't think that deer would like to be killed by that. From this day forth I shall be referring to them as "Disney-bullets."

 

[Buchan]

I’ll agree lead free is a better descriptor but copper is an essential element, although it can be toxic if in excess
Lead is not in any body system, even small amounts can have adverse effects.

 

[Heym SR20]

People keep saying that copper is “toxic”. Take a look at any packet of vitamin and mineral supplements and they contain copper along with iron, magnesium and other essential metals.

Copper has very fundamental part in the metabolism within the cells that allows your body to function. Iron is a cornerstone of the bloods ability to transport oxygen to your cells as part of your metabolism.

The body, if functioning correctly, takes in vitamins and minerals as part of your diet. You absorb these and your body regulates how much you take in. Excess are excreted in your urine or via the bile in your poo.

Both copper and iron can be toxic if consumed in excess quantities over time. And your bodies natural regulatory system can go wrong and have higher levels than desirable. The is in particular a troublesome hereditary condition of too much iron in your system, which can be managed. Higher than normal feretin levels are also a symptom of infectious disease in particular COVID.

Lead on the other hand has no positive beneficial effects on the metabolism of any plant or animal - or least science has yet to find any positive effects. We have yet to see the lead supporting community carry out any research showing any positive effects of lead on body metabolism.

 

[timbrayford]

I’ll agree lead free is a better descriptor but copper is an essential element, although it can be toxic if in excess
Lead is not in any body system, even small amounts can have adverse effects.

We often hear about this small amounts stuff but given the exposure that many of us have had its very surprising that we seem to be unafflicted, especially the military guys with their heavy exposure , perhaps its something that the MOD have successfully covered up?

 

[Smellydog]

Lead on the other hand has no positive beneficial effects on the metabolism of any plant or animal - or least science has yet to find any positive effects. We have yet to see the lead supporting community carry out any research showing any positive effects of lead on body metabolism.

Yes it does. It's provided millions of tonnes of meat and still is. Meat is good for you

 

[Steff]

People keep saying that copper is “toxic”. Take a look at any packet of vitamin and mineral supplements and they contain copper along with iron, magnesium and other essential metals.

Copper has very fundamental part in the metabolism within the cells that allows your body to function. Iron is a cornerstone of the bloods ability to transport oxygen to your cells as part of your metabolism.

The body, if functioning correctly, takes in vitamins and minerals as part of your diet. You absorb these and your body regulates how much you take in. Excess are excreted in your urine or via the bile in your poo.

Both copper and iron can be toxic if consumed in excess quantities over time. And your bodies natural regulatory system can go wrong and have higher levels than desirable. The is in particular a troublesome hereditary condition of too much iron in your system, which can be managed. Higher than normal feretin levels are also a symptom of infectious disease in particular COVID.

Lead on the other hand has no positive beneficial effects on the metabolism of any plant or animal - or least science has yet to find any positive effects. We have yet to see the lead supporting community carry out any research showing any positive effects of lead on body metabolism.

Can‘t you see the point of this discussion? It is not about the negative or positive toxicity of lead, copper or steel.
This is about the socio-political aspect of the terminology. By adopting the laguage of the shooting opposition you are implicitly giving right to them. Think on the effect of your terminology!

 

[distantcamera]

People keep saying that copper is “toxic”. Take a look at any packet of vitamin and mineral supplements and they contain copper along with iron, magnesium and other essential metals.

Copper has very fundamental part in the metabolism within the cells that allows your body to function. Iron is a cornerstone of the bloods ability to transport oxygen to your cells as part of your metabolism.

All true.

the lead supporting community

The what?! I think you take this thread too seriously!

 

[WW.]

I’ll agree lead free is a better descriptor but copper is an essential element, although it can be toxic if in excess
Lead is not in any body system, even small amounts can have adverse effects.

Moving away from x 'because x is toxic' undermines future defence of any alternatives which also have toxic effects, or theoretical toxic effects. When it comes to metals, iron (steel shot) is more readily reactive in stomach acid than lead, being converted to an absorbable form, and is also toxic in excess (which it would theoretically be with only a pellet or two ingested by a pheasant sized bird if fully absorbed. It also has toxic effects in soil/plants and waterways) with limited excretion capacity. There is evidence that if patterned correctly, steel shot penetrates further than lead when feathers are factored in. So a decent argument for using steel shot is that, once you find a load which suits your gun (as we do with rifles), it can be more effective than lead. This logic prevents people from using the argument 'you banned x because it's toxic, y is also toxic so you should ban that too'.

Copper is less reactive to stomach acid than lead, so whilst also toxic in overdose, it can be harder to get a toxic dose than with lead or iron, so copper rifle ammunition is arguably a less toxic option in this regard and can be a viable option if it can perform similarly ballistically- which we know is not the case for all calibres.

Interesting study in the US showed that American Kestrels fed copper pellets regurgitated most of them within about 12 hours without being fed (the study fasted the birds to minimise extra regurgitation of copper pellets in regurgitated feed pellets), showing that there is a mechanism for these birds to get rid of metal shot. I can't find similar for lead/iron, although as these react faster with stomach acid they could still theoretically be absorbed in larger (thus potentially toxic) amounts within that time period. I am aware of some birds in zoo collections which were fed deer shot with lead ammunition then developing lead toxicity.

Back to the original post - I agree we should call them what they are. Copper, steel, bismuth, whatever it is. It's more accurate.

 

[Buchan]

We often hear about this small amounts stuff but given the exposure that many of us have had its very surprising that we seem to be unafflicted, especially the military guys with their heavy exposure , perhaps its something that the MOD have successfully covered up?

The small amounts stuff is correct, there are lots of metallic elements that are essential for varied enzymes within the body. Enzymes are not just digestive in function but are there because they are a catalyst without which many biochemical process cannot happen. Copper, iron, zinc, cobalt all examples.
Lead has no beneficial effects, only negative ones.
The exposure you refer to for military folk - here’s a paper suggesting it is a problem (skim read so could be wrong) https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.2022.306936

 

[Steff]

….

Back to the original post - I agree we should call them what they are. Copper, steel, bismuth, whatever it is. It's more accurate.

It‘s not just this. Our opponents don‘t really care which sort of ammo we use. This is just an intermediate step on their way to ultimately take our guns away from us.