Shooting Muntjac or CWD with .22 centerfire held in N.Ire but travelling to mainland

[FURNOTFEATHER]

Hi Guys,

Hope you find this query interesting and can help with firearm laws both sides of the irish sea.

Ok, I have a .22-250 rifle on my N. Ireland FAC which is detailed as 'sporting purposes and vermin control'. Could I take this rifle over to england to shoot muntjac or CWD in season or do I need the FAC to detail deer on it? Also, Ive heard that on the mainland you need your FAC to detail 'expanding ammunition' in order for you to buy or posess it-is this correct?

Any help or experiences is appreciated!

Regards,

FNF

 

[Paul at Fechan]

That would be a phone call to your FLO to confirm, best not to speculate on that

 

[FURNOTFEATHER]

Cheers Paul but whats the situation regarding 'expanding ammunition' no such classification or requirements over here.

 

[prometheus]

I would imagine the 'sporting purposes' would cover you for deer however you would need to be able to buy expanding Ammo or can you get expanding in NI without the condition on your licence. If that is the case again I don't see a problem if you bring it with you, it is still Britain.

 

[matt_hooks]

Be very careful about the expanding ammunition. If your FAC is not conditioned for it then it is not legal for you to possess it on the mainland. I think you'll be needing a visitors permit, though I may be wrong.

 

[FURNOTFEATHER]

Cheers for your replies guys.

 

[Bob]

If you are a member contact BASC, they will be able to give you all the correct info.

Bob

 

[new forest]

When I went to NI for Sika we had to apply for a separate NI visitors licence so I would assume you would have to do the same to come here?

 

[caorach]

You need a condition on your NI FAC in order to transport the rifle outside of NI. I suspect there are many NI shooters who don't realise this and who travel without this condition but I was told I had to get it and I'd hate to find myself stuck in the ferry port on the way back with a rifle that should never have left the country in the first place Mine says "may be transported from Northern Ireland for use on land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot..." My reading of that is that I can shoot anywhere, at anything, in the UK outside of NI.

You don't need a visitors permit to travel to any other part of the UK with an NI certificate and in fact the NI certificate is viewed as a sort of UK "gold standard" in the sense that it probably allows you to do more stuff outside of NI than is allowed by locals in the same area. However, your certificate and serial numbers will be checked at the ports and airports.

I am not 100% sure about the situation regarding having expanding in all of the UK (you know how some forces are for making stuff up when it suits them) but Northern in Scotland were very helpful and said I didn't need it, gave me that in writing and the person involved gave me her direct line number should I encounter any problems buying ammo in her area. I'm given to believe that the same situation should apply throughout the UK. I've never had any problems in northern Scotland buying expanding ammo with my NI certificate, everyone I've had dealings with seems to understand. I believe that other forces do not require it but the NI licensing people will give it to you as a "courtesy" if you feel you will need it somewhere else in the UK to buy ammo. (i.e. they will print an expanding condition on your certificate even though you don't need it in NI and shouldn't need it anywhere else just to make life easy for you)

 

[FURNOTFEATHER]

Thanks very much for your input Caorach. The 'expanding ammunition' point was highlighted to me by a BASC rep, and he recommended that it was added to my FAC. The wording to allow you to transport your rifle out of the province is quite interesting, as I had never heard of this previously-I had just heard that a N. Ire FAC was automatically accepted on the mainland but this did not work the other way round.

I tried to contact my local Firearms Enquiry Officer this morning to put these points to him along with a few others, but no one was answer at his extension number. Instead, I sent off an email to him which should give him a better opportunity to seek advice on any points that he couldn't answer confidently from memory. I'll post the information here that he replies with once that reply comes in but thanks again for your input.

 

[matt_hooks]

Sorry but a NI cert does NOT cover you for expanding ammunition unless it is specifically conditioned for it.

Firearms act 1968, as amended.

Section 5,1A,f

(1A)​

Subject to section 5A of this Act, a person commits an offence if, without the authority of the Secretary of State [F8or the Scottish Ministers (by virtue of provision made under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998], he has in his possession, or purchases or acquires, or sells or transfers—

(f)​

any ammunition which incorporates a missile designed or adapted to expand on impact;


So the NI FAC does not allow you to possess, or purchase, expanding ammunition. None of the items in section 5A are relevant.

 

[fryer]

I agree with last post. You need to have have expanding amumuntion on your ticket or it is illegal to possess it.

Also you would need to have deer stalking on relevent calibre not just vermin shooting as both muntjac and CWD, although small, are classed as deer not vermin.

 

[caorach]

I appreciate what both of you are saying but this is not how it works in practise, you must remember that the NI certificate, for whatever reason, is the "gold standard" of UK FACs. My NI certificate allows me to possess expanding without it being detailed on the certificate so, in effect, I do have the equivalent of a UK expanding condition and I have the correct permission to possess in the sense that my local force allow me expanding but they just don't, as a rule, write this on the FAC. So, if you had an expanding condition in England and drive to Scotland you'd be covered for expanding and it is just the same travelling from NI except that the expanding condition is assumed for all certificate holders and so is not explicitly printed on the FAC. I have certainly talked to the firearms people in Inverness and they are happy with this and also assume this to be the situation and the firearms people here in NI recognise that there can be confusion and so they will condition for expanding on an NI FAC but they highlight that it isn't actually needed and is only a courtesy measure. Any RFDs I've had contact with in Northern Scotland have also understood this and will sell expanding to me without the explicit condition on the basis that an NI certificate holder does not require such a condition.

Also the condition to transport the rifle effectively conditions it to be used to shoot anything, anywhere within the UK as detailed previously. An NI certificate holder doesn't need, nor can they get to my knowledge, a deer condition which indicates that deer can be shot in England or Scotland because the condition we have, which is recognised throughout the UK, allows us to shoot anything anywhere we have the legal right to do so throughout the UK.

 

[FURNOTFEATHER]

I agree with last post. You need to have have expanding amumuntion on your ticket or it is illegal to possess it.

Also you would need to have deer stalking on relevent calibre not just vermin shooting as both muntjac and CWD, although small, are classed as deer not vermin.

Unfortunately Fryer, I don't think a NI FAC ever species species its holder may shoot(at least none of mine in 18 years have or any others I have seen).

I have a rifle which I applied for to use for FOX Control but all my firearms and moderators are ALL listed as for 'sporting purposes and vermin control' I'm guessing things are different on the mainland unless someone else from NI has any different wording on their FAC?

 

[matt_hooks]

Caorach, what you are saying kind of suggests that the police are riding roughshod over the legislation. The law, as quoted above, is VERY clear.

Still, if you can get it in writing then I suppose you have a defence. I'd still be asking the NI issuing authority for that expanding ammunition authority. You might not "need" it according to the people you've spoken to, but it would make absolutely certain that you were on the right side of the law.

 

[caorach]

Caorach, what you are saying kind of suggests that the police are riding roughshod over the legislation.

I'm no expert on the law so what I'm going to say is just a wild guess at what the "legal" position is based upon how it operates ion practise, as ever my analysis may be flawed or just plain wrong. As you've outlined the letter of the law says that I must have permission to hold expanding ammo. There is nothing to say that I need to have this permission written on my FAC as a condition, just that I must have it. The police here have always taken a very intelligent approach to the whole expanding ammo thing in the sense that everyone with an FAC has permission for expanding and so there is no problem in NI with expanding and the entitlements of my FAC apply when I travel within the UK. Visitors from other parts of the UK coming to NI need a visitors certificate but I don't need one to travel to Scotland, as I do on a regular basis, and my various "permissions" travel with me with no problems at all in my experience to date. I've no idea at all as to why this only works in one direction (though to be fair we don't have a huge amount of deer stalking that is going to attract someone from England or Scotland) but as I've said the NI FAC is viewed as the "gold standard" of certificates in the UK in the sense that it opens all the doors once you travel outside of NI.

In terms of an NI FAC having the species listed on it I'm certain that I have a condition on mine naming deer, this condition applies only in NI where there were only a relatively small number of rifles conditioned for deer which may be why furnotfeather hasn't seen this condition before, I imagine the numbers are increasing every year but even so they still can't be huge. Once I transport my rifle outwith NI then the condition is as detailed above which is to say I can shoot anything I have permission to shoot.

I'd be interested to know if those running boar shooting would let me shoot boar based on my NI certificate, maybe I will post another thread just out of interest?

 

[matt_hooks]

Caorach, in terms of quarry conditions your certificate is as all FAC's should be, i.e. once initial "good reason" is established, they should not be un-necessarily limited. Indeed the way I read the law is that unless something is specifically forbidden it is legal and lawful. So unless your FAC forbids the shooting of a species (I've never seen an FAC condition that explicitly forbids the shooting of anything) then it is legal to use it for that species, provided it is not illegal so to do under other legislation such as the deer act or other acts of protection for wildlife. The condition on an FAC should not be unduly prescriptive.

However, the expanding ammunition is a different matter. I know we are going round in circles, but English (and Scottish) law requires a specific, written condition to allow the purchasing, possession and use of expanding ammunition due to it being considered "especially dangerous". If you are happy to purchase and possess without this condition then that is your risk.

On a slightly different note, I cannot use expanding ammunition as a target round. Would you suggest that under your FAC you could use it as such?

 

[Apache]

On a slightly different note, I cannot use expanding ammunition as a target round. Would you suggest that under your FAC you could use it as such?

But you can use it for zeroing. Now if that zeroing session (obviously at targets) ran into a few hundred rounds who's to stop you?

 

[matt_hooks]

Oh Apache, there are glaring holes all over the place. That's what you get with rushed, badly drafted legislation.

As for "a few hundred rounds" I'm only allowed to possess 300 .243, though I think if I got through that amount in a day with my poor little PH I'd have a very melted barrel for my trouble.

 

[Apache]

As for "a few hundred rounds" I'm only allowed to possess 300 .243, though I think if I got through that amount in a day with my poor little PH I'd have a very melted barrel for my trouble.

I was thinking rimfire, but you know what I am getting at! There's nothing to say after 30 rounds it becomes target shooting. Would be hard to justify it if you entered a competition but otherwise I can't see a problem.