Certificate fees: a fair price for a fair service. BASC statement.

[1066kieran]

Whatever happens there will always be people who moan. If the FAC/SGC cost reduced someone would still find something to moan about - people would moan that they got an even worse service from the licensing departments because the revenue was lower! If things are so bad here, there are 26 other member states in the European Union where people are free to go, and that's without looking further afield.

Nice sensible moderate reply well done glad you've not got my back.
So emigrate because we are about to be ripped off again? or do something about it like the french do.All i want is to be treat like a decent law abiding human being in the country where i contribute a lot to the party and take little if anything in return
Kieran

 

[Virbius]

Nice sensible moderate reply well done glad you've not got my back.
So emigrate because we are about to be ripped off again? or do something about it like the french do.All i want is to be treat like a decent law abiding human being in the country where i contribute a lot to the party and take little if anything in return
Kieran

I agree Kieran, but whilst there are some things that niggle, I can't actually remember the last time where I wasn't treated like a decent law abiding human being.

 

[1066kieran]

Been seen as a cash cow so we can carry out a lawful activity? As a minority in the community that doesn't seem decent.

 

[CWMMAN3738]

I take it BASC has canvassed its members on this first and this is the compromise,BUT, I agree that things have to change first or in exchange and BASC should get this pushed through together with this price increase so we get something near a reasonable service for our fees.


personally I think 1for1 should go completely within a calibre range and for mods or like for like, it's just pointless exercise as they are notified of the change anyway by both parties, the rules should be the same nationwide, and maybe it could last for 10 years like a passport if we are paying passport money for it with a 5 year review if they wnt to then I would consider it fair.

 

[PeteL1]

IIRC the certificate is something required by Statute for the protection of the Public and like other services such as public parks, road fund tax, driving licences, etc are paid for partly or wholly from the public purse. Therefore there is no reason why we, the shooting community, should pay for a "service" which we do not want and didn't ask for.
What I am saying, in essence, is that there should be no increases, let it be paid for like any other service. It's the police who demand it, so why should we decent, law abiding citizens have to fund them when they get more than enough from everyone in the annual precept.
This should be fought, tooth and nail, in the Courts, if necessary.
Additionally, I didn't like the tone of the BASC statement, it seems to indicate they've rolled over, once again. We should not compromise but stand and fight.
Peter

 

[Taff]

Stand and fight, you must be jokin, most shooters would not join BASC etc, if it was not for the insurance.

 

[1066kieran]

Stand and fight, you must be jokin, most shooters would not join BASC etc, if it was not for the insurance.

As proven on here many time "cheapest insurance" or some such or alternately "I've been stupid I wish I was in a shooting organisation to get me out of the hole I've dug"
Kieran

 

[CWMMAN3738]

I agree but a compromise could be good for us too if BASC do their bit and David has already stated that their new head will lead the advance from the front or something like so let's see him now stand & get us a deal that makes this pill worth swallowing!

Sorry this is what David BASC actually said:-Trust me, with our new CEO at the helm he will be making sure BASC drives forward and fights on the front foot!
David.

IIRC the certificate is something required by Statute for the protection of the Public and like other services such as public parks, road fund tax, driving licences, etc are paid for partly or wholly from the public purse. Therefore there is no reason why we, the shooting community, should pay for a "service" which we do not want and didn't ask for.
What I am saying, in essence, is that there should be no increases, let it be paid for like any other service. It's the police who demand it, so why should we decent, law abiding citizens have to fund them when they get more than enough from everyone in the annual precept.
This should be fought, tooth and nail, in the Courts, if necessary.
Additionally, I didn't like the tone of the BASC statement, it seems to indicate they've rolled over, once again. We should not compromise but stand and fight.
Peter

 

[Greymaster]

Yep - that's just it isn't it. Those that 'need' CCW, 338 Lapua, 50 Cal for foxing, demand that only HE/AP rounds are suitable and so on and it all dies on the vine.

Meantime the ability to hold a reasonable quantity of ammunition, swap your 243 for a 257 Roberts without a major exercise, possibly carry your lock blade multitool without fear of losing your liberty, solvency, home etc all the sensible stuff that would help the system to work - becomes the stuff of wishful thinking.

It would be helpful if having an FAC also permitted the carrying of knives as we have already been appraised as fit to carry a lethal weapon. Whereas carrying the knife in the wrong place could lose you your FAC>

 

[timbrayford]

Certificate fees: a fair price for a fair service. Firearm and shotgun certificate holders and applicants should pay a fair price for a fair service, according to the UK’s largest shooting organisation, the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC). The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) has submitted a proposal to the Government to increase certificate fees from £50 to £94. The last revision of fees took place in 2001. BASC recognises that some costs will have increased but believes there are still efficiency savings and service improvements which can be made by the police, some with no cost attached. BASC also recognises that Chief Constable Andy Marsh, the ACPO lead on firearms licensing is committing time, effort and resources to make improvements. However, the licensing system is currently patchy at best, with significant differences in delivery across different police forces and long delays in some areas. Bill Harriman, BASC director of firearms said: “BASC’s specialist firearms team handles more than 500 calls every month from people who are trying to negotiate their way through the system. This puts us in a unique position to be able to assess how firearms licensing is operating across the UK. Service delivery is inconsistent. Some police forces produce long and unacceptable delays in the process. We are seeing improvements in some areas, but not in all. The police have official Home Office guidance which should be setting consistent standards, but our experience shows that in practice, this is far from the case. Certificate holders should pay a fair price for a fair service and BASC wishes to see that fair service put in place. Neither certificate holders nor the taxpayer should have to pay for inefficiency. BASC is talking to the police and to the Government and discussions are on-going.”

BASC I must disagree, you are being too reactive to these proposals rather than proactive.

You say a fair price for a fair service, but what service do we have here?

We have some bureaucratic nonsense of certificates imposed on us by Govt, in the name of armed crime prevention but why should the cost of this be borne by shooters alone rather than every taxpayer?

This IMO should be the basis for your discussions as my representative.

atb Tim

 

[finnbear270]

It would be helpful if having an FAC also permitted the carrying of knives as we have already been appraised as fit to carry a lethal weapon. Whereas carrying the knife in the wrong place could lose you your FAC>

This has to be one of the most sensible & well thought out posts Iv'e ever read on here.!

 

[Apache]

We have some bureaucratic nonsense of certificates imposed on us by Govt, in the name of armed crime prevention but why should the cost of this be borne by shooters alone rather than every taxpayer?

Honestly that would be wasted breath. Certificates in one guise or another are here to stay. It's not a particularly onerous procedure. Take a look at the stats in America with legally held guns!

I don't want any moron to walk into ASDA and grab a new pistol with their weekly shopping. There needs to be a procedure to stop unsuitable people having access to guns. Whilst I appreciate that doesn't stop them getting one on the black market, it makes it a damn sight harder than walking into their local RFD!

I am in complete favour of simplification of the system, but to suggest it is abandoned is ludicrous.

 

[bogtrotter]

Honestly that would be wasted breath. Certificates in one guise or another are here to stay. It's not a particularly onerous procedure. Take a look at the stats in America with legally held guns!

I don't want any moron to walk into ASDA and grab a new pistol with their weekly shopping. There needs to be a procedure to stop unsuitable people having access to guns. Whilst I appreciate that doesn't stop them getting one on the black market, it makes it a damn sight harder than walking into their local RFD!

I am in complete favour of simplification of the system, but to suggest it is abandoned is ludicrous.

+1

 

[Moray Outfitting]

Fin270 per comment on Greymaster above - which followed mine. Not sure if misread you comment?

Emoticon implied 'reverse humour' - but find it hard to believe you actually thought it was 'that bad' in terms of sensible ever post on SD etc.

I raised it. Three times stopped by police ion random spot checks - three times never an eyebrow raised when I declared firearms in the car - nor was my offer to show my FAC taken up - literally waved away. Yet they each time immediately asked about knives! I carry a copy of the relevant legislation in my glove box and simply handed it to them with a smile each time - end of process and a wry smile back.

In the last two years a serving CID officer has been convicted of 'knife crime' for carrying a knife in her hand bag at a village fair - despite the same bag carrying two apples and colleagues knowing she didnt like apple peel! Three farmers stopped and charged/ cautioned for having an opinel in their pocket?

Not anti Police by any means, but statistics need to be fed and things happen.

Not talking about carrying a push dagger or Fairburn Sykes in case of 'aggro', talking about lifting one more worry from having a stalking knife in my car, a forgotten folder in a pocket, a leatherman on my belt - or even - so help me a PC commenting that the Res Q Me tool on my key ring had a razor blade in it and could be construed as 'a problem'!

​Such a wacky idea?

 

[Greymaster]

I didn't think it was such a whacky idea. I do wonder sometimes about carrying the knife I bought at a gamefair around the grounds. Plod could have a field day, and they are usually there on site with their countryside watch presence.

I am not talking about a new regime for knife licensing, simply a concession about being permitted to carry a knife on your person and having an FAC is prima facie a good reason/lawful authority.

 

[Moray Outfitting]

GM

​Yep - obviously a few details to fill in, but basically the premise I was putting forward.

 

[finnbear270]

Just a bit shocked I hadn't seen such a good idea & simple addition to a firearm certificate before,

 

[Moray Outfitting]

Fin270 - understand now, many thanks for clarification

I would clarify - genuine not a police basher and having worked in a prosecuting/investigatory service I appreciate the 'statistical pressure' that can be applied, whilst intrinsically hard to avoid, I wasnt really criticising the officer on the spot. Struck me that a simple 'carry card' type scheme would make life easier for all concerned.

Obviously walking down the drinks isle of Sainsburys with a katana strapped to you're back and a 9" Cold Steel trailmaster strapped to your thigh isn't going to be covered! Sorry Bogtrotter.....

 

[finnbear270]

Fin270 - understand now, many thanks for clarification

I would clarify - genuine not a police basher and having worked in a prosecuting/investigatory service I appreciate the 'statistical pressure' that can be applied, whilst intrinsically hard to avoid, I wasnt really criticising the officer on the spot. Struck me that a simple 'carry card' type scheme would make life easier for all concerned.

Obviously walking down the drinks isle of Sainsburys with a katana strapped to you're back and a 9" Cold Steel trailmaster strapped to your thigh isn't going to be covered! Sorry Bogtrotter.....

Been into Stan's emporium in Oswestry, bunny slitter on belt, bolt round other side, when picking up Mike's whisky for Xmas visits!..... Constables on the door (shopping), never batted an eyelid! ........... maybe it was the bloodied wellies?

 

[Moray Outfitting]

Yes - but that was Stan's and Gobowen is just down the road!