Certificate fees: a fair price for a fair service. BASC statement.
- Thread starter Simon Clarke
- Start date
CWMMAN3738
Well-Known Member
So get on and get it done David! 
(in my lifetime please) we've been complaining about these simple things for 30+ years isn't it about time.
(in my lifetime please) we've been complaining about these simple things for 30+ years isn't it about time.I know it may be not as important as actual weaponry but surely police and everyone else would benefit from a change in how sound moderators are dealt with. It's been said so ofte but really what danger does a mod present. Once you have them entered on your FAC you should be able to change them at will. Just seems the whole moderator thing is a total waste of everyones time.
CWMMAN3738
Well-Known Member
Another very true point espically as you can buy them in halfords, lol
Don't know what you mean
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timbrayford
Well-Known Member
So why is this issue not being raised as part of the fees discussion, surely there can be no plausible argument that administering S1 is cheaper than S2?
atb Tim
Tim, because that would need a change in the wording of the Act and Parliament are not looking to revise the Act as I have already said.
The issue we are concentrating on right now is trying to ensure all the licencing teams deliver a swift and efficient service - as I have said it can be done...secondly we are resisting increases to fees.
Issues such as knives, moderators etc. I promise to raise with the firearms team and the political team.
David
The issue we are concentrating on right now is trying to ensure all the licencing teams deliver a swift and efficient service - as I have said it can be done...secondly we are resisting increases to fees.
Issues such as knives, moderators etc. I promise to raise with the firearms team and the political team.
David
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
CWMMAN3738
Well-Known Member
So do you have a timeframe on this hen David as if it's anything like AOLQ which some are still resisting I'll be dead & buried, lol
Moray Outfitting
Well-Known Member
Only a quick one. As much as I'm ( andy ) forming a view on how things could be better. also appreciate fully that in the political world the rules are about compromise. Not nice to say or face upto when we KNOW we're right! But thats the reality.
So I think the useful focus is to be clear on what we'd like and why, but be equally distinct in terms of what within that can be actually achieved.
BASC are in a strong position and ears are open politically that have not been for a long time. To be brutally honest we - the collective of shooters and organisations have been too partisan and very much way too little and far too late for decades. The net result is reflected in the current environment with which we have to deal - like it or not.
My personal view is that as a group we simply aren't going to become proactive enough to make huge sea changes any time in the next decade or more.
But thats not to say there isnt a valuable and precious improvement to potentially be had here and now. BASC love it or loathe it have a place at the table. The pressure is on them to perform - that is right and proper - but lets make clear some realistic aims - thereby holding them to delivery. A utopian wish list is simply not going to happen and pressing for that to be voiced loses both the opportunity and lets BASC of the hook if we dont get change.
Its for David et al to speak for BASC view - but I doubt that they are unaware of all this!
So I think the useful focus is to be clear on what we'd like and why, but be equally distinct in terms of what within that can be actually achieved.
BASC are in a strong position and ears are open politically that have not been for a long time. To be brutally honest we - the collective of shooters and organisations have been too partisan and very much way too little and far too late for decades. The net result is reflected in the current environment with which we have to deal - like it or not.
My personal view is that as a group we simply aren't going to become proactive enough to make huge sea changes any time in the next decade or more.
But thats not to say there isnt a valuable and precious improvement to potentially be had here and now. BASC love it or loathe it have a place at the table. The pressure is on them to perform - that is right and proper - but lets make clear some realistic aims - thereby holding them to delivery. A utopian wish list is simply not going to happen and pressing for that to be voiced loses both the opportunity and lets BASC of the hook if we dont get change.
Its for David et al to speak for BASC view - but I doubt that they are unaware of all this!
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Only a quick one. As much as I'm ( andy ) forming a view on how things could be better. also appreciate fully that in the political world the rules are about compromise. Not nice to say or face upto when we KNOW we're right! But thats the reality.
So I think the useful focus is to be clear on what we'd like and why, but be equally distinct in terms of what within that can be actually achieved.
BASC are in a strong position and ears are open politically that have not been for a long time. To be brutally honest we - the collective of shooters and organisations have been too partisan and very much way too little and far too late for decades. The net result is reflected in the current environment with which we have to deal - like it or not.
My personal view is that as a group we simply aren't going to become proactive enough to make huge sea changes any time in the next decade or more.
But thats not to say there isnt a valuable and precious improvement to potentially be had here and now. BASC love it or loathe it have a place at the table. The pressure is on them to perform - that is right and proper - but lets make clear some realistic aims - thereby holding them to delivery. A utopian wish list is simply not going to happen and pressing for that to be voiced loses both the opportunity and lets BASC of the hook if we dont get change.
Its for David et al to speak for BASC view - but I doubt that they are unaware of all this!
1st rule of negotiation - what you don't ask for you don't get
atb Tim
1st rule of negotiation - what you don't ask for you don't get
atb Tim
Indeed, shy bairns get no sweets!
I think the important thing is that you have to go in with reasonable, thought out proposals that make a compulsive argument for reform that the police and politicians can see deal with an anachronism and also makes a viable business case for reduction in bureaucracy.
so to go back to the examples above, if each 1-1 variation costs the police £25 to process (bedfordshires parliamentary evidence figure) and, if we pick a figure from thin air, every certificate holder does on average two 1-1 variations in the lifetime of their certificate - then over Bedfordshires 19k odd FAC holders, they've saved a million quid in processing variations that are generally for identical, or almost identical (e.g.. 243 win swap to 6mm rem) firearms, with no impact on public safety.
CWMMAN3738
Well-Known Member
It also appears we are only getting some reform due to costs but we should exploit this weakness fully at this time before the opertunity passes.
We are probably more than halfway down the slope to acceptance now!
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Yes if you read the ACPO report in another thread this would appear to be so.
As the topic of fees & costs has now arisen with ACPO I would of thought that it would be entirely reasonable to ask them to look at which of the S1 controls are relevant to crime prevention and which have become superfluous in the modern age and just add to administration costs.
I have urged BASC to raise this matter on behalf of the shooting community but they have dismissed the idea stating that it is not on the agenda.
In that case get proactive and put it there!
I regret that BASC are finding this too much of a challenge so I will be writing to Andy Marsh about this myself.
atb Tim
As the topic of fees & costs has now arisen with ACPO I would of thought that it would be entirely reasonable to ask them to look at which of the S1 controls are relevant to crime prevention and which have become superfluous in the modern age and just add to administration costs.
I have urged BASC to raise this matter on behalf of the shooting community but they have dismissed the idea stating that it is not on the agenda.
In that case get proactive and put it there!
I regret that BASC are finding this too much of a challenge so I will be writing to Andy Marsh about this myself.
atb Tim
Moray Outfitting
Well-Known Member
Negotiation and politics do not precisely gel. Appreciate that seems a bit 'pythonesk', but its true.
Normal negotiating techniques do not have to be so cognisant of media and PR ramifications. One liner 'cliches' sound good, but dont progress things - ' ask for the moon and you look like a looney' for example
In politics you absolutely do not gift the otherside the ability to ridicule your demands - as I've remarked on the Magistrate post we simply do not have the environment to work with at present.
There are real and good benefits to be obtained here and now. There is much that needs changing and I say we should work on that going forward. Push for everything and we'll get little.
That isnt laying a cop-out for BASC - I believe that their credibility is very much under scrutiny on this, something extremely tangible needs to be delivered.
But do keep in mind that it seems more than half of us think everything is fine really!
Normal negotiating techniques do not have to be so cognisant of media and PR ramifications. One liner 'cliches' sound good, but dont progress things - ' ask for the moon and you look like a looney' for example
In politics you absolutely do not gift the otherside the ability to ridicule your demands - as I've remarked on the Magistrate post we simply do not have the environment to work with at present.
There are real and good benefits to be obtained here and now. There is much that needs changing and I say we should work on that going forward. Push for everything and we'll get little.
That isnt laying a cop-out for BASC - I believe that their credibility is very much under scrutiny on this, something extremely tangible needs to be delivered.
But do keep in mind that it seems more than half of us think everything is fine really!
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Negotiation and politics do not precisely gel. Appreciate that seems a bit 'pythonesk', but its true.
Normal negotiating techniques do not have to be so cognisant of media and PR ramifications. One liner 'cliches' sound good, but dont progress things - ' ask for the moon and you look like a looney' for example
In politics you absolutely do not gift the otherside the ability to ridicule your demands - as I've remarked on the Magistrate post we simply do not have the environment to work with at present.
There are real and good benefits to be obtained here and now. There is much that needs changing and I say we should work on that going forward. Push for everything and we'll get little.
That isnt laying a cop-out for BASC - I believe that their credibility is very much under scrutiny on this, something extremely tangible needs to be delivered.
But do keep in mind that it seems more than half of us think everything is fine really!
Yes, as a shooting community we do seem to be rather too content to tolerate unnecessary restrictions and expense. atb Tim
Agreed what we have is a shooting community , who would take what ever is dished out to them for fear of losing there license, even to the point of encouraging there own restrictions to others entering the sport, and
long will it continue while the majority of shooters are willing to keep there heads low. The hunting with dogs act was supposed to see the end of fox/deer hunting in the uk, but it has been fought against at every opportunity at all levels from the fields to the court room, and hunting is now more popular than ever, not knocking BASC but there normal reply is that they will not fight a case they can not win, and the police take advantage of this, we need to push the boundrys every time, most of the pushing at the moment seems to be, being carried out by the target rifle / pistol manufactures, community at the moment, with pistols and semi auto rifles.
long will it continue while the majority of shooters are willing to keep there heads low. The hunting with dogs act was supposed to see the end of fox/deer hunting in the uk, but it has been fought against at every opportunity at all levels from the fields to the court room, and hunting is now more popular than ever, not knocking BASC but there normal reply is that they will not fight a case they can not win, and the police take advantage of this, we need to push the boundrys every time, most of the pushing at the moment seems to be, being carried out by the target rifle / pistol manufactures, community at the moment, with pistols and semi auto rifles.
Lol - all of this discussion; it ssems to me that the simplest idea (although difficult to administer) would for shooters en masse to come up with a new firearms law, present it to the police/HO then thrash it out to come up with a mutually agreed set of rules/laws, which, to be honest is pretty much what we seem to do already when we read something on here, and then 10 -100 posts later we deckde what it means, and that is it, whether that is the actual (meaning of the) law or not!
As for price, one single department for the whole country would probably be significantly cheaper than the current system - it works for driving licences and passports!
As for price, one single department for the whole country would probably be significantly cheaper than the current system - it works for driving licences and passports!
Moray Outfitting
Well-Known Member
Teabag - if you are going to start spoiling people's fun, you can just go and protest somewhere else! 
If it is so simple, how come we haven't done that already.... oh hang on!
Attractive idea isn't it?
If it is so simple, how come we haven't done that already.... oh hang on! Attractive idea isn't it?
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