So Why breed if you did not have sufficient working homes for all the pups to begin with... Is this not the problem to begin with??
Extortionate prices for dogs....
- Thread starter Wolverine
- Start date
So Why breed if you did not have sufficient working homes for all the pups to begin with... Is this not the problem to begin with??
Let's face it folks, dog breeding can be very lucrative and tax free for most people.......that's why people will just breed from any dog as long as the breed is fashionable and fetches a high price for a pup.
jamross65
Well-Known Member
Rock and a hard place Richard.
Scenthounds and rare breeds aside, if I have a good working lab or spaniel it is likely I will want to keep a pup for myself off her. So I take a litter perhaps at 3 years when in her prime and so that she is not a maiden bitch at 7 years old when that's about the age you want to introduce a youngster to the kennels again. Otherwise you end up with lots of youngish dogs all retiring at the same time.
I'm lucky as I can go to Edward Martin, who my line originated from, use his stud and know that because of his reputation and a few folk I know, that between us all pups would probably be accounted for and going to working homes before they were even born.
Lets be honest about it, stalking in the UK has a few factions that when looked at are driven solely by the not inconsiderable sums of money some are prepared to pay.
Specialised dogs seem to be no different. There is no doubt there is an element of fashion or status in it and that is where the cash is to be made by breeders in the UK or abroad. Especially when a dog is advertised as supposedly being the 'best ever available', the Rolls Royce of all scenthounds. And folk buy into that sh*te!
The way I see it is this, anyone who thinks they are buying the best for 2 or 3 times the going rate has simply not done their homework. They obviously do not have a clue about the breed, how to source the proper dog or breeder and therefore will likely not have a clue either as to how to train and get the best from it. Anyone with half a brain will realise that this amount of money is not necessary to spend as societies throughout Europe offer dogs from proven lines hundreds of years old at a fraction of the price.
Its back to what I think is status, bragging rights and sadly pose value. Just the same as owning some rifles and other equipment.
I bet 9 out of 10 stalkers will never need a ballistic turret on a scope, or probably even an illuminated reticle for 90% of their shots! But I am willing to bet that the vast majority of lets say Swarovski Z6 scopes are sold with both attachments, meaning a £500 bill over a scope that has neither. Why is that? Why do we get sucked in to thinking that by spending that extra money we are getting something we absolutely need or is the best for our needs?
I remember seeing a video so many years ago I can't remember just how many it was, of Jan Andrews walking away with her rifle on her shoulder and two BMH dogs walking to heel behind her. They were the first dogs of that kind that I saw, albeit on film, in the UK. How many stalkers susceptible to 'marketing hype' watched that and thought, 'I must have one...'?
I shoot a fair number of deer every year and have friends that do likewise, meaning the potential for my dog to get several tracks in a season is high but I still questioned whether or not I needed such a dog. Did I have the work for it, genuinely, or would another GWP suffice? I'm happy with the decision I made but it took almost a year and a lot of research to come to that decision.
As George said to me yesterday the moment you bring serious money into a hobby or pass-time like stalking, the enjoyment fades, folk fall out and accusations about being ripped off start to fly. Well not if you do a bit of homework first, and looking for a dog like a scenthound is no different to any other aspect of the sport.
6pointer
Well-Known Member
Brian home work sometimes is not that easy. If you are new to a sport you rely on others to guide you in the correct direction.Now there are many on here i have asked for help and some i am still asking at this time. Calibres deer numbers choice of rifle boot coat nifes the list gose on and on.
Dog,s are probably the most expensive purchase a stalker will ever make and we all become frightened to speek our minds why because we dont really know.
There are some in the classifieds that only use that section and do not contribute to an open forum. They have no thought to the members and have made no friend on here .This leads to no scruples and claims that can be way off just to sell an item.
Had that item been the a leupold scope offered for sale for £3000 pounds every one and there granny would have been on that seller.
Roll,s Royce or Renault .
I did see a silver Angle above Ria,s head a few weeks ago but sadly it was only Lorraine dusting of the christmas decoration,s
Dog,s are probably the most expensive purchase a stalker will ever make and we all become frightened to speek our minds why because we dont really know.
There are some in the classifieds that only use that section and do not contribute to an open forum. They have no thought to the members and have made no friend on here .This leads to no scruples and claims that can be way off just to sell an item.
Had that item been the a leupold scope offered for sale for £3000 pounds every one and there granny would have been on that seller.
Roll,s Royce or Renault .
I did see a silver Angle above Ria,s head a few weeks ago but sadly it was only Lorraine dusting of the christmas decoration,s
jamross65
Well-Known Member
Ah, but the views the dog threads get clearly show the amount of interest the subject has and it is also obvious from them which members are worth speaking to in looking for advice Davie. I speak occasionally to members about dogs and training and will often say to them to contact so-and-so and mention I told them to do it. They are the experts and will keep them right. Your right about the number of members who do not contribute to the site though...
The reason I post some of the dog stuff I do, warts and all, is to try and show what not only a young dog can and should be able to do, but also to show some of the mistakes I have made in the hope others learn from them like I do, but who perhaps don't have access to the tutelage I am lucky to have...
Cut+Squirt
Well-Known Member
Yes the dog threads get many thousands of views, but I suspect many just view them
for the entertainment value and the inevitable bickering
Out of the thousands of views there really is only a handful of members that
actively participate in them... leading me on to think, that there maybe isn't
that much deer dog work going on out there.
for the entertainment value and the inevitable bickering
Out of the thousands of views there really is only a handful of members that
actively participate in them... leading me on to think, that there maybe isn't
that much deer dog work going on out there.
jamross65
Well-Known Member
Yes the dog threads get many thousands of views, but I suspect many just view them
for the entertainment value and the inevitable bickering
Out of the thousands of views there really is only a handful of members that
actively participate in them... leading me on to think, that there maybe isn't
that much deer dog work going on out there.
Really Cadex?
Well there must be a lot of sh*t hot shots out there then.....
pablo.222
Well-Known Member
Yes the dog threads get many thousands of views, but I suspect many just view them
for the entertainment value and the inevitable bickering
Out of the thousands of views there really is only a handful of members that
actively participate in them... leading me on to think, that there maybe isn't
that much deer dog work going on out there.
this made me chuckle a little
Really Cadex?
Well there must be a lot of sh*t hot shots out there then.....
Brian, 99% of UK stalkers never miss or wound a beast! Very few own up to it which could also mean very few dont shoot enough deer or the other 99% are afraid to ask for help or admit a balls up for fear or being ridiculed! Personaly if someone asks for my help I dont question the shot or the shooter just clear up or try to clear up the resulting mess. NEVER KISS AND TELL! If the truth be known we have all cocked up!
Wolverine
Well-Known Member
Your 100% right Cadex-there is NOT much PROPER AND CORRECT deer dog work going on just now.......eg-letting dogs run wild to try and find a beast that the handler doesn't even know where it's hit......don't even start on the training......Yes the dog threads get many thousands of views, but I suspect many just view them
for the entertainment value and the inevitable bickering
Out of the thousands of views there really is only a handful of members that
actively participate in them... leading me on to think, that there maybe isn't
that much deer dog work going on out there.
JAYB
Administrator
Are we progressing, actually getting somewhere. If all the previous dog threads had been conducted in this manner then all the "entertainment" that has been mentioned would not exist. Contrary to popular belief we are not anti dog thread, personally speaking I like the dog threads, but even the most ardent of dog men amongst you have to admit that the conduct on some of the early threads by some of the contributors was abysmal. What happens then is that people become intimidated and refuse to contribute, others become angry at the behaviour of others and this precedes a barrage of complaints to admin, which in turn takes a lot of time to deal with. Now bearing in mind that the site is a hobby, and requires a not inconsiderable daily input, ask my missus, it all becomes a bit tedious. We like it best when running the site is a pleasure and people can communicate without unpleasantness, because it makes life easier for us.
The usual eruption of a contentious dog thread sends a chill down my spine, but if all future threads can be conducted in a civil manner, as this one is (at the moment), then perhaps they could become helpful and informative to a good many folk on here and keep my spine a little warmer.
John
The usual eruption of a contentious dog thread sends a chill down my spine, but if all future threads can be conducted in a civil manner, as this one is (at the moment), then perhaps they could become helpful and informative to a good many folk on here and keep my spine a little warmer.
John
Cut+Squirt
Well-Known Member
Your 100% right Cadex-there is NOT much PROPER AND CORRECT deer dog work going on just now.......eg-letting dogs run wild to try and find a beast that the handler doesn't even know where it's hit......don't even start on the training......
Hook line and sinker .. Jesus lighten up man.
Maybe I wasnt clear with my post, for once I wasn't having a pop at anyone, I was just making
comment that I think it may be the case that looking at the general populous of
stalker a high percentage either don't have a dog nor access to one.
I don't have access to any figures of course just my own thinking, hence me
saying that I don't think there is much deer dog work going on.
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Cut+Squirt
Well-Known Member
Really Cadex?
Well there must be a lot of sh*t hot shots out there then.....
Lost in translation mate, not sure what you mean.
Wolverine
Well-Known Member
No Cadex not hook line and sinker pal,no need to lighten up either,hence my smiley at end of post.....I was being factual,not having a go at anyone either......
Hook line and sinker .. Jesus lighten up man.
That is the truth.
Cut+Squirt
Well-Known Member
Sorry great enlightened one, I shall respectfully bow out of the thread and let
you get back to your gossiping and lecturing.
Worms, can, open.....
Maybe because we don't shoot running deer there is less need for 'proper' deer work compared to our continental and colonial cousins...Discuss
Not that I am suggesting that British shots are necessarily better (I have seen some howlers), in fact I doubt there is much statistical difference in the accuracy of shots from the UK and elsewhere around the globe, but the fact that we do not habitually shoot moving deer will surely have an impact on wounding rates, at least IMHO.
In what is now 20 years of stalking, including guiding a fair few guests both UK and foreign, I am fortunate that I can count on the fingers of one hand the deer that I have seen shot and not recovered. Each of those is one too many, but whether it's stalking, game shooting, foxing or fishing we have to reconcile ourselves to the fact that not every beast of the chase that is wounded will be recovered.
You will know that I have posted before about my own experiences finding deer with my untrained labrador, Fallow. I said then that, for 99% of British stalkers, all they need 99% of the time is a dog that will find dead deer. So is it really justifiable for that 1% of the time to have a specialised, highly trained deer dog? I would say not. Is it justifiable to have access to a dog used to finding deer, whether specifically trained or not? That is a slightly different question.
None of the above is said to underplay the fact that every deer shot deserves to be followed up and recovered, but specialising in deer dogs is the work of a small minority - a minority that I greatly admire, but a minority none the less. To train a dog specifically for deer clearly takes years of practice, dedication, time, experience and, I would guess, not a little expense. The majority out there do not have those attributes. That does not mean we do not respect our quarry and does not make us any "lesser" stalkers. But sometimes that "jack of all trades" Labrador will have to do! No field trial champion, no continental competition winner, just a mutt.
As to why the threads have so many views and so little input?
I enjoy reading the deer dog threads but, to Admin's points, I rarely venture to offer comments or ask questions. You will already have gathered that I am not a specialist trainer of deer dogs,and sometimes reading all the replies I could almost feel "unworthy" because of it
I know, or at least hope, that's not the way the comments are meant to be taken, but there is probably more passion and deep feeling in the Deer Dogs thread than elsewhere on the Site....well, at least until Blasers are mentioned But not everyone aspires to have the finest tracking dog, the best hound pedigree or certification to a gold standard. Some of us just want to take our dogs stalking and feel a little more confident that, should the worse happen and we wound a deer, we are at least helping to stack the odds somewhat in our favour.
willie_gunn
Wolverine
Well-Known Member
Thank you very much Cadex.
Glad you've learned something......some actually want to learn.
Wolverine
Well-Known Member
100% correct Willie.Worms, can, open.....
Maybe because we don't shoot running deer there is less need for 'proper' deer work compared to our continental and colonial cousins...Discuss
Not that I am suggesting that British shots are necessarily better (I have seen some howlers), in fact I doubt there is much statistical difference in the accuracy of shots from the UK and elsewhere around the globe, but the fact that we do not habitually shoot moving deer will surely have an impact on wounding rates, at least IMHO.
In what is now 20 years of stalking, including guiding a fair few guests both UK and foreign, I am fortunate that I can count on the fingers of one hand the deer that I have seen shot and not recovered. Each of those is one too many, but whether it's stalking, game shooting, foxing or fishing we have to reconcile ourselves to the fact that not every beast of the chase that is wounded will be recovered.
You will know that I have posted before about my own experiences finding deer with my untrained labrador, Fallow. I said then that, for 99% of British stalkers, all they need 99% of the time is a dog that will find dead deer. So is it really justifiable for that 1% of the time to have a specialised, highly trained deer dog? I would say not. Is it justifiable to have access to a dog used to finding deer, whether specifically trained or not? That is a slightly different question.
None of the above is said to underplay the fact that every deer shot deserves to be followed up and recovered, but specialising in deer dogs is the work of a small minority - a minority that I greatly admire, but a minority none the less. To train a dog specifically for deer clearly takes years of practice, dedication, time, experience and, I would guess, not a little expense. The majority out there do not have those attributes. That does not mean we do not respect our quarry and does not make us any "lesser" stalkers. But sometimes that "jack of all trades" Labrador will have to do! No field trial champion, no continental competition winner, just a mutt.
As to why the threads have so many views and so little input?
I enjoy reading the deer dog threads but, to Admin's points, I rarely venture to offer comments or ask questions. You will already have gathered that I am not a specialist trainer of deer dogs,and sometimes reading all the replies I could almost feel "unworthy" because of it
But not everyone aspires to have the finest tracking dog, the best hound pedigree or certification to a gold standard. Some of us just want to take our dogs stalking and feel a little more confident that, should the worse happen and we wound a deer, we are at least helping to stack the odds somewhat in our favour.
willie_gunn
@theroedeerguy
Well-Known Member
Worms, can, open.....
Maybe because we don't shoot running deer there is less need for 'proper' deer work compared to our continental and colonial cousins...Discuss
Not that I am suggesting that British shots are necessarily better (I have seen some howlers), in fact I doubt there is much statistical difference in the accuracy of shots from the UK and elsewhere around the globe, but the fact that we do not habitually shoot moving deer will surely have an impact on wounding rates, at least IMHO.
In what is now 20 years of stalking, including guiding a fair few guests both UK and foreign, I am fortunate that I can count on the fingers of one hand the deer that I have seen shot and not recovered. Each of those is one too many, but whether it's stalking, game shooting, foxing or fishing we have to reconcile ourselves to the fact that not every beast of the chase that is wounded will be recovered.
You will know that I have posted before about my own experiences finding deer with my untrained labrador, Fallow. I said then that, for 99% of British stalkers, all they need 99% of the time is a dog that will find dead deer. So is it really justifiable for that 1% of the time to have a specialised, highly trained deer dog? I would say not. Is it justifiable to have access to a dog used to finding deer, whether specifically trained or not? That is a slightly different question.
None of the above is said to underplay the fact that every deer shot deserves to be followed up and recovered, but specialising in deer dogs is the work of a small minority - a minority that I greatly admire, but a minority none the less. To train a dog specifically for deer clearly takes years of practice, dedication, time, experience and, I would guess, not a little expense. The majority out there do not have those attributes. That does not mean we do not respect our quarry and does not make us any "lesser" stalkers. But sometimes that "jack of all trades" Labrador will have to do! No field trial champion, no continental competition winner, just a mutt.
As to why the threads have so many views and so little input?
I enjoy reading the deer dog threads but, to Admin's points, I rarely venture to offer comments or ask questions. You will already have gathered that I am not a specialist trainer of deer dogs,and sometimes reading all the replies I could almost feel "unworthy" because of it
But not everyone aspires to have the finest tracking dog, the best hound pedigree or certification to a gold standard. Some of us just want to take our dogs stalking and feel a little more confident that, should the worse happen and we wound a deer, we are at least helping to stack the odds somewhat in our favour.
willie_gunn
Totally agree with the above, I have a great interest in dog work and there is without doubt some excellent guidance available through the forum.
I have recently retired my Patterdale stalking companion who was definately in the free ranging dead deer finder category and nothing more.
I do have a developing interest in the finer points of scenthound training though and who knows what my next dog choice and training regime may be.
Regards
BP
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mark-joppa
Well-Known Member
That's the kind of reply that winds people up.
I have had pleasure of meeting Wolverine a number of months back through a mutual friend. I am no dog expert and I don't put Wolverine up there but he can walk the walk and talk the talk.He has helped many people on this site and I can't speak for him but I am sure he is getting prity ****ed of with the backlash from some members.I know we have our own opinions and yes emotions run high,but are we not all working for the same end.
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