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PSE Composites Limited - The next level Rifle Stocks
Sol said:
That's a weird one and I without a doubt have strong views on that, I do agree with hendrix.

People that dont like killing animals, dont, they dont own firearms and instead partake In more "normal" every-day hobbies or work, even If a stalker dislikes actually outright killing deer and instead enjoys other parts of it your still killing deer for your own satisfaction regardless even If its for a reason a very very very large amount of the population couldn't fathom doing something like that and would bawl there eyes out before the trigger is even pulled.

We might not like taking a life, but we still willingly chose too gain our firearms, locate deer, and shoot them no one In there right mind will do that If they at least dont have a little bit of enjoyment about it.
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Sol, I was right with you up to using the word "enjoyment". I don't like the word killing and thankfully in my 49 years of MOD service, I've never had to do that but I have dealt with the consequences a fair bit and my current day job is to ensure maximise service personnel's chances of survival as best I can.

Similarly, I don't like the word "hunting" - I know its technically correct. I prefer management (sadly standing ready for Lee's inevitable input here) as I'm trying to manage deer at a level set by ecologists on my primary ground, and by the farmers on my private ground, as best I can - I take pleasure in doing that to the best of my ability and get pleasure when that is recognised. Just as I've virtually given up driven game shooting as for me, its only one or 2 "good" birds that make my day's shooting and not the obscene numbers that are shot by many, I'm increasingly leaving roe especially. Fallow and muntjac get no such grace.
 
wytonpjs said:
Sol, I was right with you up to using the word "enjoyment". I don't like the word killing and thankfully in my 49 years of MOD service, I've never had to do that but I have dealt with the consequences a fair bit and my current day job is to ensure maximise service personnel's chances of survival as best I can.

Similarly, I don't like the word "hunting" - I know its technically correct. I prefer management (sadly standing ready for Lee's inevitable input here) as I'm trying to manage deer at a level set by ecologists on my primary ground, and by the farmers on my private ground, as best I can - I take pleasure in doing that to the best of my ability and get pleasure when that is recognised. Just as I've virtually given up driven game shooting as for me, its only one or 2 "good" birds that make my day's shooting and not the obscene numbers that are shot by many, I'm increasingly leaving roe especially. Fallow and muntjac get no such grace.
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I agree with the waste, non-natives, excess killing etc I 100% agree with that, But I dont think sugar coating words matters at the end of the day management Is involved in shooting deer and pleasure Is near identical too enjoyment In the context of shooting. (hell the anti's use those interchanging)

I dont bounce for joy when I shoot deer I never have and will never do I'm actually surprisingly calm only thing that's ever gave me buck fever was a button buck, and the stags as I wanted a clean kill (what I achieved!) I do feel remorse I've taken the life of an overall innocent creature and I always will do, however truthfully If I did not enjoy it even a smidge I wouldn't too shoot a deer Is by far the most severe mental block for a person If you dont like it, you'll never do it and there's nothing wrong with that not everyone Is able to do so.
 
wytonpjs said:
Sol, I was right with you up to using the word "enjoyment". I don't like the word killing and thankfully in my 49 years of MOD service, I've never had to do that but I have dealt with the consequences a fair bit and my current day job is to ensure maximise service personnel's chances of survival as best I can.

Similarly, I don't like the word "hunting" - I know its technically correct. I prefer management (sadly standing ready for Lee's inevitable input here) as I'm trying to manage deer at a level set by ecologists on my primary ground, and by the farmers on my private ground, as best I can - I take pleasure in doing that to the best of my ability and get pleasure when that is recognised. Just as I've virtually given up driven game shooting as for me, its only one or 2 "good" birds that make my day's shooting and not the obscene numbers that are shot by many, I'm increasingly leaving roe especially. Fallow and muntjac get no such grace.
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You see this is where we differ personally I see using terms such as “ deer manager “ etc as just pandering to the antis …. I’ve never worried what lesser minds think of me
 
I love killing stuff. Pigeons, crows, foxes, rabbits, rats. Whatever. There has to be a reason to kill them but once I have a reason, the more dead the better. Once there’s enough of them dead and the reason isn’t there, I stop killing them. I’m generally pretty good at it.
 
Sol said:
That's a weird one and I without a doubt have strong views on that, I do agree with hendrix.

People that dont like killing animals, dont, they dont own firearms and instead partake In more "normal" every-day hobbies or work, even If a stalker dislikes actually outright killing deer and instead enjoys other parts of it your still killing deer for your own satisfaction regardless even If its for a reason a very very very large amount of the population couldn't fathom doing something like that and would bawl there eyes out before the trigger is even pulled.

We might not like taking a life, but we still willingly chose too gain our firearms, locate deer, and shoot them no one In there right mind will do that If they at least dont have a little bit of enjoyment about it.
Click to expand...
in regards to "enjoy killing", I wouldn't say I "enjoy" it but I do get great satisfaction from being good at it. Placing the bullet in the correct place, resulting in instant death, is the enjoyable part for me. I realize that numbers have to be controlled and we owe it to the animal, to do that as quickly as possible. Of course there's also the stalk, the fresh air, the wilderness, which are all part of the overall enjoyment. Sometimes after shooting a big stag, I look at him and think, "such a shame", but its all part of what we need to do (if your controlling numbers).
 
fordman said:
in regards to "enjoy killing", I wouldn't say I "enjoy" it but I do get great satisfaction from being good at it. Placing the bullet in the correct place, resulting in instant death, is the enjoyable part for me. I realize that numbers have to be controlled and we owe it to the animal, to do that as quickly as possible. Of course there's also the stalk, the fresh air, the wilderness, which are all part of the overall enjoyment. Sometimes after shooting a big stag, I look at him and think, "such a shame", but its all part of what we need to do (if your controlling numbers).
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100% right on the money, no one wants too outright take a life but Its a nessicery part of the process and if we hated it we wouldn't do it, I enjoy when my shot placements is perfect It is for sure rewarding on that aspect.
 
I've been stalking for nearly 50 years now and have shot thousands of deer. I wouldn't say that I get enjoyment in killing deer, but I see it as doing a job to the best of my ability, getting a clean kill that gives me satisfaction.
I must admit that I am now getting a bit soft, I recently spent half an hour watching a black roe doe interacting with her fawn,also black, I know I should have shot them but couldn't bring myself to squeeze the trigger so let them go on their way.
 
mike308 said:
I've been stalking for nearly 50 years now and have shot thousands of deer. I wouldn't say that I get enjoyment in killing deer, but I see it as doing a job to the best of my ability, getting a clean kill that gives me satisfaction.
I must admit that I am now getting a bit soft, I recently spent half an hour watching a black roe doe interacting with her fawn,also black, I know I should have shot them but couldn't bring myself to squeeze the trigger so let them go on their way.
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Hopefully not that recently (last 6 weeks)! I'm now in a similar place with roe - I'll manage them where I must but they are not the problem (for me) - its muntjac and bloody fallow :(
 
mike308 said:
I've been stalking for nearly 50 years now and have shot thousands of deer. I wouldn't say that I get enjoyment in killing deer, but I see it as doing a job to the best of my ability, getting a clean kill that gives me satisfaction.
I must admit that I am now getting a bit soft, I recently spent half an hour watching a black roe doe interacting with her fawn,also black, I know I should have shot them but couldn't bring myself to squeeze the trigger so let them go on their way.
Click to expand...
I think most of us have all done similar. I remember one evening on the last day of the doe season - the keeper had said the fallow were on a bit of old cover crop that’d been flailed so I went & sat overlooking the block & waited. I’d shot plenty of fallow that winter but you can never shoot enough so I waited & waited. At last knocking a lone roe doe appeared, I sat & watched her every move as the clock ticked well past legal shooting time & only once she’d moved away from me did I slowly & quietly get up & retreat back into the cover so I didn’t disturb her.

Now if she’d been a fallow doe, she’d have been shot at the first opportunity that presented itself!

These days I tend to leave the roe alone, taking stock of what’s where & how many could be removed. Then around February I’ll take out what I think I need to; this year I shot two.
 
wytonpjs said:
Hopefully not that recently (last 6 weeks)! I'm now in a similar place with roe - I'll manage them where I must but they are not the problem (for me) - its muntjac and bloody fallow :(
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This was back at the end of February. I'm culling the deer ,red, Roe and sika, to protect about 600 acres of replanted clearfell of various ages so heavy culling of all the species.
 
wytonpjs said:
Hopefully not that recently (last 6 weeks)! I'm now in a similar place with roe - I'll manage them where I must but they are not the problem (for me) - its muntjac and bloody fallow :(
Click to expand...
I try and leave any roe i see locally but they keep getting in to a fenced area with a load of new planted trees! Shot 5 out of it now over the last year. We've gone from seeing no roe whatsoever to numbers building fairly well. Just unfortunate when they need to be shot
 
fordman said:
in regards to "enjoy killing", I wouldn't say I "enjoy" it but I do get great satisfaction from being good at it. Placing the bullet in the correct place, resulting in instant death, is the enjoyable part for me. I realize that numbers have to be controlled and we owe it to the animal, to do that as quickly as possible. Of course there's also the stalk, the fresh air, the wilderness, which are all part of the overall enjoyment. Sometimes after shooting a big stag, I look at him and think, "such a shame", but its all part of what we need to do (if your controlling numbers).
Click to expand...
Worded it far better than I 👍
 
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I love roe, there's enough of them here but not an over abundance that I just take how many does I need during the winter months too sustain what we and others want this season I took 5 breeding age does, 2 fawns, and one very old mature doe, one of the breeding age does whilst pregnant was very malnourished and borderline a mercy kill.

I try too leave young bucks until the following winter as It keeps pressure off the does with there kids, I'd rather look for the last few antlered bucks in november and December than deciding too shoot kids, joys of the Scottish season I supose I couldn't think of not having that option.
 
hendrix's rifle said:
Would anyone in their right mind put the graft in to meet a cull target whilst paying for the privilege to actually keep the deer you shoot?
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I'll be honest, there are times in the past I'd have done this if the option was there. I love deer and I love deer stalking but it's not always that easy depending on where you live. I'm very lucky that I've always found my own ground but there have been some patchy spells when I've moved to a new area, for example.

Booking a few outings here and there with guides (where you pay extra to bring the carcass home!) soon adds up plus you are tied to their availability / schedule. A couple of nice fallow / reds would keep most freezers stocked and going out on your own, when you fancy and with the ease of hanging anything else in the larder and walking away is pretty attractive to many.
 
Personally I agree with the OP, on principle there shouldn't be a bag limit and/or the stalker should pay what the estate gets for a carcass, which is peanuts anyway. The more venison consumed privately, the better for the image of stalking and sector generally.
 
muddy42 said:
Personally I agree with the OP, on principle there shouldn't be a bag limit and/or the stalker should pay what the estate gets for a carcass, which is peanuts anyway.
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I do agree to a certain extend but it also depends a lot on how much investment has gone into the operation. If you have to invest in a quad for extraction, a dozen hightseats and a chiller back at home then it's going to set you back north of £20k before you've shot a deer. Versus free use of someone else's facilities and an easy route to dispose of as many carcasses as you need. Which shouldn't be underestimated for larger deer.

muddy42 said:
The more venison consumed privately, the better for the image of stalking and sector generally.
Click to expand...

I'm playing Devil's advocate to a degree but there is a counter argument here that a professional larder installed and properly maintained by an estate, with onward refrigerated transport to the gamedealer before being cut and packed by a professional butcher in an inspected premesis is "better for the image of stalking and deer" than a "Fred in a shed" operation with an old coke fridge in the corner of a garage and some freezer bags labelled with marker pen...
 
75 said:
I do agree to a certain extend but it also depends a lot on how much investment has gone into the operation. If you have to invest in a quad for extraction, a dozen hightseats and a chiller back at home then it's going to set you back north of £20k before you've shot a deer. Versus free use of someone else's facilities and an easy route to dispose of as many carcasses as you need. Which shouldn't be underestimated for larger deer.
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Exactly this @75 - the then new FSS approved larder on that syndicate cost ~£250k, a separate large "dirty" ISO chiller was provided, quad bike (later Kubota) and North of 20+ proper high seats across the ground. It was a sizeable business investment that needed to make a return and whilst I was providing free labour (and an additional revenue stream), I was able to indulge my recreational hobby whilst gaining valuable woodland/fallow stalking knowledge and experience. Up to the point that I bailed, I considered it an equitable return.
 
75 said:
I'm playing Devil's advocate to a degree but there is a counter argument here that a professional larder installed and properly maintained by an estate, with onward refrigerated transport to the game-dealer before being cut and packed by a professional butcher in an inspected premises is "better for the image of stalking and deer" than a "Fred in a shed" operation with an old coke fridge in the corner of a garage and some freezer bags labelled with marker pen...
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My view remains that until venison is accepted as a mainstream meat product (which sadly I believe will be never) there will continue to be a role for "Freds in sheds" (which I class myself as - accurate description given 😆 bar the labelling).

I've just dropped off a weekly re-supply to my local farm shop; good presentation and packaging with clear FSA-compliant labels is essential!
 
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wytonpjs said:
My view remains that until venison is accepted as a mainstream meat product (which sadly I believe will be never) there will continue to be a role for "Freds in sheds" (which I class myself as - accurate description given 😆 bar the labelling).

I've just dropped off a weekly re-supply to my local farm shop; good presentation and packaging with clear FSA-compliant labels is essential!
Click to expand...

I'm firmly "Fred in a shed" too and definitely see the valuable role we play but your setup is not the type I was referring to. Some of the stuff on Giving Up the Game does make me wonder at times though... :(
 
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