bewsher500
Well-Known Member
Mr W.D.M Bell didn't think he needed a bigger gun....
He only moved to his famous 7x57 because he couldn't get decent ammo for his 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenauer.....
.270 has more energy than a 7x57.....
.243 95gr SST for Red?
- Thread starter Kernow_Stalker
- Start date
Mr W.D.M Bell didn't think he needed a bigger gun....
He only moved to his famous 7x57 because he couldn't get decent ammo for his 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenauer.....
.270 has more energy than a 7x57.....
tackb
Well-Known Member
apparently lots of people got stomped by angry hefalumps whilst trying to copy mr bells achievements ?
stephentri
Well-Known Member
140 grain sst work fine in my 6.5 x55
Yeah I heard that. He was a phenomenal shot mind
Cumbrian 1
Well-Known Member
When Bell first started hunting Africa most of his eles were shot in the open as a result of low hunting pressure, this is certainly not the case now where the herds are only found in the thickest bush. It is not so easy to place a bullet in such conditions and I doubt he would have done so well in modern African elephant hunting.
He was still an outstanding shot, the flying cormorant shooting with his 7x57/.275 was something else.
A flying cormorant shot with a 7x57 is impressive. Although given the fact that I dont have anywhere with enough empty space behind it im not sure I will try to emulate such a thing haha,
Im not sure when asked in court why i thought it was appropriate to fire at a flying bird with a centrefire rifle that my response of
"But W.D.M Bell did it" would really carry much weight?
bewsher500
Well-Known Member
Actually phenomenal shot aside.
The thing that set him apart from other elephant hunters in my mind was his deep and detailed knowledge of Pachyderm Cranial Anatomy
He personally sectioned several elephant heads to determine exactly where the thinnest bone was and where the most lethal shots could be placed.
Also true mate yeah. He did the research to make sure the smaller stuff he liked worked. It did if he could place the shot precisely. He could 
He's my second favourite 'white hunter'. The first being Selous.
He's my second favourite 'white hunter'. The first being Selous.
There is a lot of hearsay on the internet about Bell and his accomplishments, but very few people actually read his the body of literature he published.
His success had not only to do with his understanding of elephant anatomy and shooting prowess, but his knowledge of and experience with herd behaviour.
The 6.5x53R Gibbs rifle that he used was primarily a meat getter for camp. Used with soft points he recalls it being a "real killer" on game. He also used it on elephant with solids and said that the bullets were near "ideal" for the job, but that the ammo he sourced was "unreliable". What was considered unreliable to him? He has ONE misfire in his rifle and that was enough for him to switch to the .275 Rigby/7x57 for elephants. He highly praises the ".256 mannlicher" in all of his writings and says that it took more game than any other rifle. He also used a .318 Westley Richards, a .303 Enfield sported and a couple others.
While no doubt a very good rifleman, I think too much of Bell's success is attributed to this alone.
Also, Bell had a very high opinion of military cartridges primarily because he understood how much funding and research went into developing them. I tend to agree. The best cartridges by my standards even today tend to be over a century old military rounds. Same goes for bolt action design, which has not been surpassed since the Mauser 98.
His success had not only to do with his understanding of elephant anatomy and shooting prowess, but his knowledge of and experience with herd behaviour.
The 6.5x53R Gibbs rifle that he used was primarily a meat getter for camp. Used with soft points he recalls it being a "real killer" on game. He also used it on elephant with solids and said that the bullets were near "ideal" for the job, but that the ammo he sourced was "unreliable". What was considered unreliable to him? He has ONE misfire in his rifle and that was enough for him to switch to the .275 Rigby/7x57 for elephants. He highly praises the ".256 mannlicher" in all of his writings and says that it took more game than any other rifle. He also used a .318 Westley Richards, a .303 Enfield sported and a couple others.
While no doubt a very good rifleman, I think too much of Bell's success is attributed to this alone.
Also, Bell had a very high opinion of military cartridges primarily because he understood how much funding and research went into developing them. I tend to agree. The best cartridges by my standards even today tend to be over a century old military rounds. Same goes for bolt action design, which has not been surpassed since the Mauser 98.
By that logic a .257 WBY MAG would be better than a .270...
Bell's success with the 6.5x53R, 7x57/.275 and .318 had absolutely nothing to do with "energy" and everything to do with heavy for caliber [solid] bullets of high sectional density. Velocity was typically between 2,200 and 2,400 fps. These bullets stayed true and penetrated very deep.
Carlsen Highway
Active Member
If you read his books Mr Bell's shots were indeed up close and personal; he hunted a variety of terrains. He sighted his rifles in for 80 yards, but much of his shooting was brain shots at shorter ranges.
The cartridge that he settled on as ideal was the .318 Westley Richards, with a 250 grain bullet and he finished out his elephant hunting using it. His last 'elephant gun' was made for a last trip he wanted to go on in 1939, but Hitler got in the way. It was a Springfield action. made into a take down rifle, chambered in .318 Westley Richards.
Shot placement is everything naturally - from elephants to deer. Someone mentioned a stag that needed to be shot four times with a .308: I cant think that any red stag shot with a 150 grain .30 cal bullet was shot correctly if he needed another three. I would like to meet the stag that could walk away from a 150 grain .30 cal of any kind. I doubt that indicates that a .308 or .30/06 is deficient in killing stags.
You get the same talk from people about wild pigs over here - about how a .243 isn't ebough gun for one. I would like to see the pig that was immune to a decent .243 bullet.
To address the OP's concerns - the .243 with a 95 SST would kill any red stag I ever saw as dead as a brick, and we get bigger bodied wild red deer here in NZ than I think you blokes do in the UK, that's what I have been told by some expat Englishmen anyway.
Another good .243 bullet is the 95 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip.
Neither of these bullets will give you an exit, they both blow up inside and do a great deal of damage, and they both will kill well.
The cartridge that he settled on as ideal was the .318 Westley Richards, with a 250 grain bullet and he finished out his elephant hunting using it. His last 'elephant gun' was made for a last trip he wanted to go on in 1939, but Hitler got in the way. It was a Springfield action. made into a take down rifle, chambered in .318 Westley Richards.
Shot placement is everything naturally - from elephants to deer. Someone mentioned a stag that needed to be shot four times with a .308: I cant think that any red stag shot with a 150 grain .30 cal bullet was shot correctly if he needed another three. I would like to meet the stag that could walk away from a 150 grain .30 cal of any kind. I doubt that indicates that a .308 or .30/06 is deficient in killing stags.
You get the same talk from people about wild pigs over here - about how a .243 isn't ebough gun for one. I would like to see the pig that was immune to a decent .243 bullet.
To address the OP's concerns - the .243 with a 95 SST would kill any red stag I ever saw as dead as a brick, and we get bigger bodied wild red deer here in NZ than I think you blokes do in the UK, that's what I have been told by some expat Englishmen anyway.
Another good .243 bullet is the 95 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip.
Neither of these bullets will give you an exit, they both blow up inside and do a great deal of damage, and they both will kill well.
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bewsher500
Well-Known Member
should never trust an ex pat Englishman
Those are the ones we kick out and get rid of to the other side of the world.......
deerstalker.308
Well-Known Member
Someone mentioned a stag that needed to be shot four times with a .308: I cant think that any red stag shot with a 150 grain .30 cal bullet was shot correctly if he needed another three. I would like to meet the stag that could walk away from a 150 grain .30 cal of any kind. I doubt that indicates that a .308 or .30/06 is deficient in killing stags.
You get the same talk from people about wild pigs over here - about how a .243 isn't ebough gun for one. I would like to see the pig that was immune to a decent .243 bullet.
.[/QUOTE]
that someone was me, the deer had through and through holes in both heart and lungs, every shot was a killer, nothing wrong with shot placement, the only possibly contentious one was a shoulder shot, but again, the internal damage was lethal.
he went down, he got back up, walked further, shot again, went down, got back up etc. I have never seen a stag so full of testosterone, he had at the time pinned a heard of cattle including a bull into the corner of the field and was holding them like they were his group of hinds.
So please don't question whether the animal was shot correctly or not from the comfort of your computer. And before you think I'm getting defensive of my shooting ability, I wasn't the one shooting, I was merely guiding. But sometimes these animals do not know when they should by all rights be dead, and if it was on my ground, I would not be happy with anyone using a .243 end of.
You get the same talk from people about wild pigs over here - about how a .243 isn't ebough gun for one. I would like to see the pig that was immune to a decent .243 bullet.
.[/QUOTE]
that someone was me, the deer had through and through holes in both heart and lungs, every shot was a killer, nothing wrong with shot placement, the only possibly contentious one was a shoulder shot, but again, the internal damage was lethal.
he went down, he got back up, walked further, shot again, went down, got back up etc. I have never seen a stag so full of testosterone, he had at the time pinned a heard of cattle including a bull into the corner of the field and was holding them like they were his group of hinds.
So please don't question whether the animal was shot correctly or not from the comfort of your computer. And before you think I'm getting defensive of my shooting ability, I wasn't the one shooting, I was merely guiding. But sometimes these animals do not know when they should by all rights be dead, and if it was on my ground, I would not be happy with anyone using a .243 end of.
Any one who hasn't struck a "frankendeer", (one which which refuses to expire) really hasn't shot many deer.
I believe in heavy for caliber pills, deep & complete penetration with blood loss, not "hydrostatic shock", (which is a furphy IMO).If you stop thinking in "energy" derived from high velocities then suddenly bullets start to perform better & hunts end, not start with the animals being shot. I too could kill any red deer with a SST if I could slip it in behind the leg, unfortunately all the deer I've struck haven't read the magazines & don't always stand broadside.
As for a 243 on pigs? Once boars start to get over 80kg the fighting shield on their shoulder is well developed & often 50mm thick, add to this their habit of encrusting themselves in mud & you have an animal more than capable of defeating a 243 with sst's. Sure its more than enough for small pigs but if forced to use a 243 on "pigs" I'd use a hard pill not the softest available
Sharkey
I believe in heavy for caliber pills, deep & complete penetration with blood loss, not "hydrostatic shock", (which is a furphy IMO).If you stop thinking in "energy" derived from high velocities then suddenly bullets start to perform better & hunts end, not start with the animals being shot. I too could kill any red deer with a SST if I could slip it in behind the leg, unfortunately all the deer I've struck haven't read the magazines & don't always stand broadside.
As for a 243 on pigs? Once boars start to get over 80kg the fighting shield on their shoulder is well developed & often 50mm thick, add to this their habit of encrusting themselves in mud & you have an animal more than capable of defeating a 243 with sst's. Sure its more than enough for small pigs but if forced to use a 243 on "pigs" I'd use a hard pill not the softest available
Sharkey
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Carlsen Highway
Active Member
I shot a yearling fallow deer a while back fair in the chest with a 150 .30 cal bullet from a .30/06 and it just stood and looked at me. I think its only reaction was to flick its ear, probably from the echo of the shot. So I reloaded and shot him again, and he expired like he should have the first time. The first bullet had landed an inch from the second and come to rest in the hide of the rear haunch.
But I don't think that means that a .30/06 with a 150 grain bullet is dodgy on very small fallow deer. Or that I extrapolate from that experience the .243 or .223 would be no good on them. Its just one of those things.
The reliably fastest kills on red deer have all been with the .243 and the .25/06. But if people want bigger cartridges I am not going to argue with you, I have a .30/06 as well too.
My posts are for the OP - yes, the 95 SST in the .243 will kill every red stag you will meet, and I doubt you will find too many boundaries to your activities with it. Or the 95 grain Ballistic tip either. Any shot I would take with a 150 grain Interlock in a .30/06 I could take with those mentioned bullets in a .243 and they would kill just as well. (Perhaps better, the damage can be greater.) Deer are just not that hard to kill.
As for pigs, I would be keen to see that pig that is immune to decent bullets in a .243. I am not saying its not possible, I personally have not shot a large boar in the shoulder with a .243 SST, but I would like to see it for myself. I have also had pig hunters tell me about that shoulder shield and how a .303 bullet won't go through it. Maybe Aussie pigs.
But I don't think that means that a .30/06 with a 150 grain bullet is dodgy on very small fallow deer. Or that I extrapolate from that experience the .243 or .223 would be no good on them. Its just one of those things.
The reliably fastest kills on red deer have all been with the .243 and the .25/06. But if people want bigger cartridges I am not going to argue with you, I have a .30/06 as well too.
My posts are for the OP - yes, the 95 SST in the .243 will kill every red stag you will meet, and I doubt you will find too many boundaries to your activities with it. Or the 95 grain Ballistic tip either. Any shot I would take with a 150 grain Interlock in a .30/06 I could take with those mentioned bullets in a .243 and they would kill just as well. (Perhaps better, the damage can be greater.) Deer are just not that hard to kill.
As for pigs, I would be keen to see that pig that is immune to decent bullets in a .243. I am not saying its not possible, I personally have not shot a large boar in the shoulder with a .243 SST, but I would like to see it for myself. I have also had pig hunters tell me about that shoulder shield and how a .303 bullet won't go through it.
Maybe Aussie pigs.
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Boarboy
Well-Known Member
My only experience with the 95gr sst was when a friend had loaded some up in his .243 after my recommendation, having read some good info about them. We both sat up a high seat to have a good fallow buck come perfectly broadside. The fallow reacted to the shot and just ran, complete surface blow up.! Luckily I caught up with the very same deer a few weeks later, looking out of condition and removed it.! I could see where the bullet had struck the point of the shoulder and the subsequent healing. Bad shot placement maybe, or just unlucky, but just my experience with them, admittedly the only one experience so cant make a fair appraisal. I don't know the velocities it was loaded at.
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