6.5 Creedmoor Load Suggestions

Bryn .... be very careful with the data in the UKV thread. It is for Small Rifle primed brass. SR ignition is much less vigorous than with Large Rifle and will change maximum loads by 1 to 1.5gn. Using SR brass data in LR brass loads can see OTT pressures very quickly. Secondly, SR Lapua brass (and I suspect Peterson too having compared the two makes in the not too different 260 Rem is a heavier case with less internal capacity than the Hornady which again changes the internal ballistics, quite significantly here.) Thirdly, the SR brass is VERY strong compared to Hornady - people are routinely running pressures in their SR 6.5 Creedmoor handloads that will kill Hornady in a couple of firings, may even see blown primers from the 'off'. (SAAMI lists the cartridge as 62,000 psi MAP and Lapua / Peterson SR brass allow that - and more - with comfort. Hornady loads its factory ammunition to 56,000-58,000 psi and frankly that is all Hornady cases will accept and still give a reasonable life.)

So, a maximum safe load (of any bullet / powder combination in SR Lapua / Peterson brass is potentially - I'll go further and say probably - too high for Hornady, and in fact likley to be unsafe.)

SR ignition (including the smaller diameter 'flash-Hole 1.5mm v the standard 2mm) also gives cartridges very different burn and pressure-rise characteristics from LR versions. So, there are in effect two cartridges here (and in 308 between standard LR brass and SR 'Palma' versions) sharing the same name. Most published loads data from bullet and powder manufacturers is for Hornady brass, but Viht's data are based on SR Lapua.

RS62 is very well suited to the cartridge in either form and is probably the best alternative to the now unavailable H4350, although IMR 'green' and Reach-compliant 4451 grade is very close in this and other cartridges to H4350 and has full data on Hodgdon's online reloading center facility.

When I had a play with the cartridge two years ago in a loaner Savage 12 LRP, I worked up to 45.0gn RS62 with the 123gn Scenar and 43.5gn RS62 with the 142gn Sierra MK. 43.5 RS62 gave the 142 2,842 fps in the 26-inch barrel LRP without any apparent pressure problems. This was in Hornady brass and with the mild CCI-BR2 primer.

In heavier but still LR Norma brass (superb quality and strong, much better than Hornady) I loaded the 140gn Nosler Custom Competition which the Savage liked more than the AMax, Scenars, or SMKs. Using H4350, IMR-4451, and RS62 loads were worked up to 42.4gn H4350; 43.3 IMR-4451 (it needs another 0.5-1gn over H4350 to achieve same MVs in the Creedmoor); 43.5gn RS62. Charges above 42.2gn RS62 in the Savage produced larger groups and I settled on a relatively mild/slow 42.2gn for 2,712 fps out of the Savage but which shot quarter - third inch at 100 and gave me a sub 6-inch 1,000 yard group in a BR competition. Nodes for your rifle / barrel won't be the same, you have to find them. These loads were in Norma brass with the BR2.

In summary, my testing suggested usable loads for IMR-4451, H4350, and RS62 are all close to each other. RS62 and IMR-4451 needed slightly heavier charges than H4350 to produce any given velocity in that rifle. This allows the widely available H4350 data to be adopted to provide starting loads only for RS62, and data must never be simply substituted or listed maximum charges for one to be regarded as safe with the others.

Muir. Lovex SO70/SW-4350 is an excellent powder in the 4350 general burning rate category. If you dig out your old reloading manuals of 12 or more years ago, this was what was then distributed in the US as AA-4350. (This was before Western Powders bought Accurate and switched suppliers from Explosia a.s. to General Dynamics Energetics, Valleyfield (the IMR manufacturer). I suspect today's Accurate-4350 available in the US (but not here) is IMR-4350 under a different label. (Of the other Explosia powders being imported to you by Shooters World, SO62 - forget its SW designation - is the old AA-4064 of the pre Western Powders period and is exactly what IMR-4064 does. An excellent 308 Win powder for instance in mid-pressure general match and hunting loads.)

IME you'll be disappointed if you expect H4350 performance though. SO70 is a competent performer but not outstanding whilst H4350 is (alongside Europe's RS62) the class leader in terms of the velocity / pressure relationship and flexibility.
Part quote "Charges above 42.2gn RS62 with 142gn Sierra MK in the Savage produced larger groups and I settled on a relatively mild/slow 42.2gn for 2,712 fps out of the Savage. What was your OAL please as this will be my goal for velocity starting at 41 and working up to 42.2.. Usual caveats.
 
It was 2.810" give or take a couple of thou'. (That was based on ~ 0.015" off the lands, not magazine allowed COALs.)
 
A point of interest Laurie...I know that you've done a fair bit now on 6.5 CM in the LR brass. I think it's come a long way since the early days, and I'm struggling to see much advantage in SRP brass other than potentially slightly longer life due to the more rigid head design.

When you loaded up with the 140 Nosler, you settled on 42.2 for 2712fps.

Using the Hornady SST140 in SRP brass gave me a little under your velocities at 2650fps for the best groups (0.45moa) in this bullet with a load of 43.6gr RS62, so 1.4gr above yours in LRP brass. It was closer to 44gr for 2700fps. The 139gr Scenar grouped routinely at 1/4moa for me (24" barrel) with a charge of 43.9gr RS62 in the same brass for 2705fps, so 1.7gr above yours for similar velocity. From data gathered from others using LRP brass and the same bullet (139gr Scenar), the average, give or take 0.15gr was 42.3 gr RS62 for 2700fps in the same length barrel, but with a bigger pressure rise/higher velocity for a grain higher at 43.5 for well over 2800fps (LRP brass) so in Lapua SRP brass there seems to be a good correlation between these weights of bullet showing around a 1.6 difference in charge between the two for similar pressure/velocity curves. I did manage to load up to 46gr at 2.840 (15 thou to lands in my chamber) for a compressed loads with little in the way of pressure signs but detrimentally to groups.

Whilst it's not a safe assumption that this pressure/velocity relationship will be the same for all bullets in that weight class between LRP/SRP it's either coincidental or quite enlightening that the variation seems to be quite consistent at a steady 1.6gr increase to match velocities of LRP brass using the SRP. In all cases either Murom or CCI200 LR and Murom KVB-223M or CCI400 were used.

I haven't yet tried CCI450's in SRP but I'll be trying those and Federal 205M SRP. CCI400's gave similar velocities but poorer groups in my rifle, plus for higher pressure loadings I wasn't happy using them for their 0.02" cup thickness which I understand isn't rated for the pressures that the CM (or 223 come to that) can develop.
 
There are two possible pluses from SRP - reduced ES/SD numbers and as you say a stronger case-head. The reduced ES doesn't always work out it seems in this size of cartridge depending on the powder and how vigorous the ignition it needs. The flip side of that coin is of course reduced ignition power leading to issues / problems with some powders and/or in some situations such as extreme cold. (It's interesting Lapua has now introduced an laternative LP version of its Creedmoor case, presumably with sporting shooters in mind.)

It is reported on another forum that some of the US long-range 243 Win shooters have had poor results with Hodgdon H1000, their favourite powder, in SRP versions of the 243. Only hearsay, so who knows? I've acquired 50 Peterson SRP 243 cases for reforming to 6mm SLR with Viht N165 planned as the primary powder. I know from experience that N160 and N165 are usually tolerant of primer make and model and that up to 47gn N160 ignites OK with SRP brass (308 Palma reformed to 7mm-08), so I'll have to see just how this works out.

No doubt though that once the case and charge get above 6.5X47 Lapua sizes, SP ignition can become 'iffy' with some powders. I had a box-full of hangfires in 308 Win 'Palma' SRP brass with Hodgdon CFE-223 whilst seeing excellent results in matching loads with LP cases.
 
That's interesting info. I haven't had any hang-fires but I did have a few fail to fires (primer ignited) when temperatures dropped below about 8 degrees which alerted me to the potential issues with ignition in cold temperatures. Seeing what others are achieving wrt to ES/SD in 6.5CM there doesn't seem to be much advantage in SRP for this particular chambering, at least for SRP/KVB223M and RS62. On balance, SRP seems more reliable with shorter powder columns so 6.5 x 47 seems to out-perform 6.5CM in SRP brass at any rate as far as the stats go. I'm currently on my 5th firing of the SRP brass in my first batch of 100 Lapua SRP cases bought with the second new batch waiting to be fire-formed. So far, primer pockets are still nice and tight with no signs of the brass bowing at the head nor any waist forming (I wouldn't expect any as the cases have only needed trimming once) so there ought to be potential for double figures firing in this brass. I anneal every firing with this particular brass. I may just buy some more in LRP and do some side buy side comparisons with the un-used batch of srp.

I had read about your issues with the 308 Palma so decided to stick with LRP for my 308 loadings! I may switch back to Vhit for LR loads to test whether the new improved recipe for temperature stability avoids my shoulder going black and blue (quite literally) when it gets warmish! I has one outing last year where 75 cartridges of .308 (175 TMK/RS50) were fired (load dev was at 15 degrees) for some 1000 yd target hoping that RS powders would avoid the pressure spikes with temperature but it performed much the same way as Vhit and left me with bruising I'll not forget for a while! Talk about kicking like a mule! A couple of stiff bolt lifts towards the end of that batch persuaded me to call it a day.
 
I did a little quite unscientific test with 308 Palma and a few powders when that brass was first introduced. It was deliberately carried out at Diggle on a day not much above freezing (~3-deg C) and the ammo exposed to a very cold wind. The same combinations with Lapua LP brass were tried alongside to check on the MV differences between the two ignition types and also see how ES values compared in such conditions.

It showed excellent results with Viht N150, the expected MV reductions aside, but not N140 strangely. In case there was something wrong with the N140 SP combination (the LP base fired in the same session performed excellently), I retried that load combination three or four months later in the spring at ~ 13-deg C and it was transformed - groups reduced by more than half, good ES, a significant MV increase.

Unexpectedly, one powder that performed well in these conditions - better than in LP brass in fact - was Hodgdon H414, put in to get a ball powder type in the test as this form is 'traditionally' expected to be harder to ignite. So, given my much later CFE-223 experience, there are obviously ball powders and other ball powders, just as two apparently similar Viht products behaved quite differently.

My findings with N150 seem to be replicated on a wider scale as this powder is very widely used by long-range F/TR competitors in SP brass with 185gn and heavier bullets in some really stiff loads with high pressures and these guys and girls shoot year round, often enough to be out with frost coating the grass. I've yet to hear of sessions being unexpectedly 'off' on very cold days. I've also used 7mm-08 with small primer brass and a compressed charge of Viht N160 for three years now in all conditions without problems.

Viht changing its powders to being temperature insensitive did raise the worry that they'd behave differently and charge weights might need to retuned. A top F/TR shooting friend did a test of the reformulated type early this year and found only marginal changes from his existing pre-reformulation load, which you can often see anyway on retests or with new powder lots, so he's very happy with the new grade and his old loads.
 
It seems to produce a conundrum for ELR shooters in the States where there can be significant pressure and velocity shifts with corresponding POI shifts in varying ambient temperatures. I believe that Alliant Reloader powders are favourites amongst some of the ELR crew because of the higher velocities they give but these (mostly) double base formulas seem also to have the greatest temperature sensitivities with examples averaging about 0.6fps/degree C compared with single base giving closer to 0.12 fps change per degree C. Those figures were arrived at over a temperature range from about -5 degress C to +60(!) as reported a while back on the Precision Rifle Blog.

The interesting thing is the compromise which the IMR Enduron range seem to offer, at about 0.24fps/Degree C. Producing very uniform smoothly extruded powders seems to help.

The main thing I took away from my own tests done purely on single base powders was that these temperature increases are not uniform or linear with temperature rise but that some (the old N140 being a case in point) seem to spike alarmingly when ambient rose from 15 degrees C to 25. A change of just 10 degrees produced MV spikes which went from no pressure signs to flattened primers and sticky bolt lift, yet were much smaller from 5 to 15 degrees in velocity differences.

H4350 seemed to be amongst the most stable, so if the new Vhit N140 and N150 compare well, I suspect that sales will rise (as much as the prices seem to be rising!). It's a great shame that we shall not (for now at least) be seeing any new batches of H4350 on our shores.

I've found a similar pattern with RS single base as with Vhit in terms of MV spread with temperature but nowhere near to the extremes in the spikes of Vhit (old) as temperatures climb above 24 or 25 degrees with warmish loads. So whilst more linear, RS62 for example still shows a fairly wide range of MVs with temperature compared with H4350.

I'm unsure if ballistic apps like Strelok use temperature sensitivity factor as a constant and therefore assume mathematically a linear rise with temperature, but with something like Strelok pro there is the ability at least to custom tailor MVs to temperature for each specific load. It's useful to map these MV changes out for each load so you know for next time which ambient temperatures might be the best (and safest!) to load develop at.

I haven't tried Vhit for SR brass in 6.5 but with RS powders, cold weather and SR brass does seem to result in hang fires and a few FTFs at least with the primers I was using. I'll be trying the same loads with 6.5 for each bullet (worked up to as per usual) and it will be interesting to see what effect primers themselves have with changes in temperature having established base figures with one make and type of primer.
 
I am about to start reloading for my Remington (Magpul) 6.5 Creedmoor (22 inch barrel 1 in 8 twist). I intend to use once fired Hornady brass, large rifle primers, Honady ELDX 143g bullets and Swiss Reload RS62 powder.

I would appreciate any advice from shooters who have reloaded this combination including starting weights nodes etc.

Thanks

bryn
I'll message data ftim RS data book.
If you put a RS Swiss data book wanted in the reload section you should get one free. One of the trade members said they had them free when I put uo a post about cheap ones on the bay
 
I am about to start reloading for my Remington (Magpul) 6.5 Creedmoor (22 inch barrel 1 in 8 twist). I intend to use once fired Hornady brass, large rifle primers, Honady ELDX 143g bullets and Swiss Reload RS62 powder.

I would appreciate any advice from shooters who have reloaded this combination including starting weights nodes etc.

Thanks

bryn
34.9 - 43.1 600mm barrel 1:8.
Primer LR RWS 5341
 
Hi, can anybody help me please? I have just started loading my first 6.5 Creedmore with 26331 Hornady ELD match at 1.3819inch in length into Sellier and Bellot case., using RS 62 as I want a single based lowish heat powder. To my consternation, at 2.855" COAL some 0.030" above the max COAL length recommended 2.825", I am hardly hearing any powder noise in the case when shaken. Has anybody used this bullet/powder combo. I don't want a compressed charge. The powder charge is correct as per my balance and the balance has been zeroed. The app says it is 91.9% load ratio but it obviously isn't. Or have I misunderstood what load ratio means. I am using Gordon's loading tool, which gives a vel of 2642 at 46610, well below the 63K for the cartridge. I finally got to COAL of 2.8252 and the slightest powder noise was able to be heard. This indicates approaching 100% loading, is this ok?
 
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I don’t have my data to hand but with 140 eld m 140g using rs62 I have a compressed load in Hornady brass. Very accurate with no pressure signs.

Bryn
Thanks Bryn. If you can find the COAL and charge weight, I would be grateful. If this is a compressed load at anything below 2.825, then I would expect the loading apps to mention it. Laurie mentions using 2.810 as a COAL but I don't know what his bullet is.
 
Using the Hornady comparator with once fired honady brass, Fed Large Match Primers, 43.8g of RS62 it measures 2.233 with an COAL of 2.853 inch. I was 30 thou of the lands however the more I get into reloading the more I’m of the opinion that measuring to the lands etc is a waste of time, just size to the spec of the round which is 2800. The rifle is a Remington 700 Magpul with 1;8 twist 22inch barrel.

I also load the 143 eld x and thats compressed as well, when I spoke to my experience reloading friend he said not to be too worried about compressed loads for the creedmoor but to start of low etc but be very mindful (I am anyway) about the pressure signs, compressed isn’t necessary bad on its own.

bryn
 
Thanks Bryn, just what the doctor ordered. Good info and I will use it. What die stem do you use to final size the cartridge, as the Lee die is pinching the end of the bullet. I was thinking of a Forster die. What do you use?
 
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