7.62 or .308

[Sampo]

If you took a 7.62 fired brass and reloaded it with a .308 load/ sp bullet head, would it be classified as an illegal 7.62 sp ammo or a legal .308 round. Also if you are allowed only to possess .308 rounds, would using 7.62 brass make any ammo you make illegal?

What would be required to prove that the ammo is a valid .308, if required?

Maybe its a dumb question but couldn't get it out of my head and am curious as to what the legal classification would be.

 

[pete evans]

my fac says .308/7.62x51 for all entries relating to my 308

 

[Orion]

What would be required to prove that the ammo is a valid .308, if required?

Shooting the animal and killing it humanely.

BTW you shouldn’t transfer a load developed for commercial .308 brass directly to milspec 7.62x51 due to potential differences in case capacity - .308 is designed for higher pressures.

 

[Alantoo]

If you took a 7.62 fired brass and reloaded it with a .308 load/ sp bullet head, would it be classified as an illegal 7.62 sp ammo or a legal .308 round. Also if you are allowed only to possess .308 rounds, would using 7.62 brass make any ammo you make illegal?

What would be required to prove that the ammo is a valid .308, if required?

Maybe its a dumb question but couldn't get it out of my head and am curious as to what the legal classification would be.

No, just a badly described one...

I hadn't realised that 7.62 x 51 soft points were illegal, and it would appear that neither do Sako, so you would be in good company in the dock.

Alan

 

[Dalua]

If you took a 7.62 fired brass and reloaded it with a .308 load/ sp bullet, would it be classified as an illegal 7.62 sp ammo or a legal .308 round.

I'd say that it is what it is, regardless of headstamp. There are doubtless handloaders who have no .308 on their FAC, but stacks of .308-headstamped 7mm-08 ammunition.

One might have to reconsider what a .308 load is, though, if using 7.62 brass. I'm told it tends to be thicker, and the resulting higher pressures invite the use of lower charges than might be appropriate for .308Win brass.

 

[Heym SR20]

Technically its not so much the headstamp, but its what the cartridge will chamber into. It’s very easy to take a 308 case, run it into 7mm-08 Die and load up 7mm-08 ammo (or ..260 or 243 etc). Unless you have authority to possess 7mm-08 ammo you are now in breech of your certificate.

i have the same with 7x57 / 275 Rigby. Rifle is engravved as a 275 Rigby, proof marks are for 7x57. And i have headstamped both 7x57and 275 Rigby ammo. It is easy enough to demonstrate that they are different names for the same thing. But on my ticket i have it listed as 7x57 / 275 Rigby to cover all eventualities.

7.62 x51 is just another name for 308 Winchester, and yes i know that they are loaded to different specs and have different chamber throats and twist rates, but there is probably more variation in manufacturer to manufacturer and certainly between different brands of ammo - in particular case volume.

However most officials, who are not firearms specialist will not know all of the above, and thus its very much easier to keep ammo headstamped the same as whats on the rifle, especially if you are having to travel with it through airports etc.

Given that 308 brass is readily available why bother with 7.62 brass and potential hastle. Ditto 223 and 5.56 etc.

 

[Sampo]

Given that 308 brass is readily available why bother with 7.62 brass and potential hastle. Ditto 223 and 5.56 etc.

Factory 7.62 ammo is cheaper and works well for target shooting when you shoot loads. However after shooting it once, if reloading for hunting, would be easier to use the brass I already have. This is what got me thinking on the legal complexities along with of course the load. It was one of those annoying questions that popped in my head and refused to go away, so thought of asking.

It was more theoretical than practical but wanted to know

 

[Sampo]

No, just a badly described one...

I hadn't realised that 7.62 x 51 soft points were illegal, and it would appear that neither do Sako, so you would be in good company in the dock.

Alan

View attachment 148742

Looks like a .308 round with the specs listed. Doubt if this is a NATO round.

 

[Alantoo]

Looks like a .308 round with the specs listed. Doubt if this is a NATO round.

The NRa don’t seem to be too picky...

New Ammunition
for the Imperial
and Inter Counties
There is a new ammunition supplier for the Imperial and Inter Counties competitions: the Lithuanian company GGG. The NRA explains how and why GGG was chosen...
As some of you may be aware, 2014 was the last year of the RUAG contract for the supply of 155gr .308 ammunition for the Imperial Meeting and we have been working to identify ammunition suitable for the Imperial and Inter Counties competitions for this and future years.
After careful research we settled upon Lithuanian company GGG. They are a relatively small manufacturer of a variety of ammunition, and we have sold large quantities of their milspec 5.56mm and 7.62mm rounds over several years with no reported problems. Their modern factory machinery was sourced from reliable American manufacturers and we have a good relationship with their UK distributor Law Enforcement International (LEI).
The product from GGG uses their standard 7.62 milspec case and primer, suitable propellant sourced by GGG, and the Sierra 2155 MatchKing bullet, as used in the
GGG’s sponsorship of the Inter Counties will see team entry fees fall by over 50 per cent. Photo: LEI
RUAG ammunition for the last six years. GGG cases are used by the Birmingham Proof House for assembly of proof loads. The ammunition is of course CIP-compliant, and we have test figures from the Birmingham Proof Laboratory showing :
Max average working pressure: 3598 bar CIP conditions mean velocity: 2822 ft/sec
(24” barrel, .300 / .308 & CIP Chamber Dimensions).
Velocity SD 13.3
LEI provided an initial sample of 400 rounds. This was followed by a larger prototype batch. We gave small samples to respected target shooters to try. With encouraging reports from those, we included a sample
in the batch testing of ammunition for
the 2014 Imperial Meeting, and used the ammunition during the Purples match in May 2014 with no reported problems and good results in a wide variety of target rifles.
Our own test figures, which come from 30” barrels with typical TR internal dimensions fired from a test rig at 200 yards (rather than CIP standard test barrels and conditions) indicate mean values over three 10-shot test strings:
Velocity 2979 ft/sec
Velocity SD 11.7
Extreme spread as a proportion of v-bull
size 0.66
Those figures are towards the top end
of the velocity range of RUAG batches from 2012 to 2014, and at the median of grouping capability of the batches used in the 2014 Imperial Meeting.
GGG was selected to supply competition grade ammunition for the NRA late in 2014, and the production run of the
2015 ammunition is nearly completed. GGG’s ammunition offers both excellent performance and exceptional value; pricing per round will be around 78 pence for competition/ retail sale compared to 99 pence for the recent RUAG ammunition.
We have decided to invest the resulting savings to reduce TR entry fees for the Imperial by 9.5 per cent in real terms (7.5 per cent year on year), meaning block A and B entry fee will be £460 (£498 in 2014); and increase youth subsidies to 40 per cent for all competitors aged under 25.
GGG and LEI have kindly agreed to sponsor the Inter Counties. Their generosity means team entry fees are reduced to £400 for 2015 compared to £895 last year.
NEWS | Ammunition
National Rifle Association 47




As you presumably have already acquired and fired the 7.62 brass legally, I am curious why you think reloading it with a 300 calibre soft point would make it illegal.

Alan

 

[Sampo]

As you presumably have already acquired and fired the 7.62 brass legally, I am curious why you think reloading it with a 300 calibre soft point would make it illegal.

7.62 at Bisley if you are a NRA member to be used on the day. Not on FAC as its only .308. Use the brass for .308 bullet head/ load, would it qualify as .308 as if stopped midway to the range, the crimp shows 7.62, which the FAC doesn't allow but its not 7.62 factory but .308 homeload. This was my confusion. Also thought 1899 Hague Declaration prohibitted the use of expanding bullets and I wasn't sure if NATO made ammo for hunting, hence my view (which could be wrong) but wanted to know from a legal perspective.

Practically I will be putting a variation for .308/ 7.62 making it easier and not having to worry about it, but it was one of those things I wanted to know. As I mentioned earlier, its more of a theoretical question.

 

[Alantoo]

7.62 at Bisley if you are a NRA member to be used on the day. Not on FAC as its only .308. Use the brass for .308 bullet head/ load, would it qualify as .308 as if stopped midway to the range, the crimp shows 7.62, which the FAC doesn't allow but its not 7.62 factory but .308 homeload. This was my confusion. Also thought 1899 Hague Declaration prohibitted the use of expanding bullets and I wasn't sure if NATO made ammo for hunting, hence my view (which could be wrong) but wanted to know from a legal perspective.

Practically I will be putting a variation for .308/ 7.62 making it easier and not having to worry about it, but it was one of those things I wanted to know. As I mentioned earlier, its more of a theoretical question.

Ah right... I was confused by your use of the word “also” in the OP. I thought you were describing two seperate scenarios. 1, The illegality of possessing 7.62 stamped cases with a soft point. 2, whether the authorities would worry about the discrepancy between what you had in you ammo case and what was listed on your FAC.

So in short my semi-sensible hat answer would be that you could ask the NRA how they can allow or specify that you must shoot with ammunition for which you are not approved. Ask your FLO if they are concerned and if so would they include 7.62 on you FAC. And give BASC or SACS something to while away the hours coming up with an answer.

On the other hand I would also take heart from the fact that HOG 2016 refer to 7.62mmx51/.308 in their good reason calibre section 13 page 123. Who is going to argue with them?

So I would say you are well safe.

Alan

 

[Laurie]

Looks like a .308 round with the specs listed. Doubt if this is a NATO round.

7.62X51mm is the standard European metric description of 308 Win (as 7.62X63mm is for .30-06) and can therefore be shown on any European 308 Win commercial ammunition packaging and/or case headstamp. It was so done sometimes in the past but rarely or never now to avoid confusion with military spec ammo. As you say, 7.62X51 NATO is a slightly different animal and any such round that meets the appropriate Nato STANAG specification and is so approved must bear a cross inside a circle Nato specification mark in the headstamp. (The same applies to all packaging whether in steel boxes or cardboard 20-round boxes.) From that point of view, they are the same cartridge, but firearms law and its application is so full of pitfalls and hidden traps, it's best to be extremely wary.

Some years ago in the days of 7.62mm target rifles some police forces started to get iffy about people having 308 Win marked ammunition (or rather more commonly for those with 308 Win marked and proofed sporting and commercial rifles buying and using cheap military surplus 7.62 Nato cartridges.) It was only a single force, at most a couple IIRC, and after protests from the GTA, NRA and others, the Home Office ruled that from a legal and policing point of view they're interchangeable. That was when most FLOs starting using the dual '308 Win/7.62X51mm' description on FACs - again most likely as a result of an HO guidance note, but we all know some FLOs either don't read those, or if they do simply ignore those they don't like. That advice was later applied to 223 Rem/5.56X45mm and that's what my FLO (North Yorks) prints on FACs in both cases.

The differences between the pair (ie taking the military and commercial versions) are very minor hence the widespread practice of interchanging them. Despite an earlier post saying that the NATO spec is for much lower pressure, that's a misreading of the specification as two different measuring methods and hence incompatible values are quoted. There is IIRC a difference of around 2,000 psi in the theoretical MAP allowed using modern strain gauge / Piezo crystal methods and in practice, both lots come out of the factories producing very similar pressures. (There is no way that 50,000 psi ammunition gives a 144-147gn FMJBT bullet the required nominal 2,800 fps MV in a typical military rifle length barrel.) Nato is (quite correctly) very concerned about obtaining absolutely reliable automatic operation and closely aligned ballistics across a wide range of military rifle and MG makes from its member countries, so that ammunition will be 100% interchangeable irrespective of origin. The 7.62 Nato chamber is marginally longer case-head to shoulder datum line than 308 Win and different sets of go/no-go gauges are used, but the difference is so small that military ammo still chambers in nearly all 308 rifles, and in the other direction, 308 Win cartridges don't have excessive headspace in a 7.62 chamber (although it's not unusual to find that commercial 308 brass will shoot better after fireforming in a military chamber and appreciate not having the shoulder bumped back over-much on resizing.) Original 7.62 Nato standard ball ammo had 'tight barrels' and undersize bullets to match, 0.3073"-0.3077", and for many years when British and Commonwealth TR rifles used issue 7.62 Nato ammo, their barrels were specified 'tight' too, in fact much tighter than that in the early days as it was found that these bullets had to be squeezed to get both enough MV and less bad precision at longer ranges (likewise very slow rifling twists, 1 in 14" the norm due to slower spin seeing fewer fliers with the really poor bullet quality in some batches). In theory commercial 308 ammunition or handloads using commercial 308 match bullets could be over-pressure thanks to the fatter bullet (0.3080" nominally, but 0.3083" common) in Nato spec or TR barrels. In practice this rarely applied but with some exceptions, particularly converted Enfield Number 4 rifles using the heavy 7.62mm RSAF Enfield Lock match barrel fitted to L39 and L42 match and sniper rifles, Enfield Enforcers and many gunsmith rebuilds such as the once-common Fulton conversions. The other way round (firing 7.62 surplus with undersize bullets in a 308 spec rifle) often produced lower than standard MVs and very poor precision.

There is one difference though that can affect people, not a firearms law and licensing one, but still needing awareness. Members of the airlines trade body (IATA) will not carry 'military firearms' or ammunition on any commercial flight in order to comply with UN directives on stopping smallarms proliferation. As far as airline staff are concerned anything marked '5.56mm' or '7.62mm' is 'military' and they'll refuse to load it, sometimes even when both designations are used together with a slash. ICFRA (the International Confederation of Full-Bore Rifle Associations) which regulates the technical side of TR, MR, F-Class and Palma has changed all references to the two metric calibres to the 'civilian' 308 Win and 223 Rem.

 

[palmer_mike]

Doesn’t matter what the head stamp says. If you’ve run it through a .308win sizing die then it’s a .308win case.

Also, who’s going to give a f&&k.

 

[Heym SR20]

Doesn’t matter what the head stamp says. If you’ve run it through a .308win sizing die then it’s a .308win case.

Also, who’s going to give a f&&k.

The bored jobsworth police officer who pulls you over because you have mud on your number plate, and then sees that you are wearing stalking type gear, and on his PNC check he sees your FAC flagged up and decides he needs to check the rifle, and then asks do you have ammunition and because he is keen to impress his training officer (or to **** off his colleage) he looks a the headstamp of the ammunition and it says 7.62x51 not 308 Winchester which is what it says on your FAC. He gets all exited and does not understand your perfectly rational explanation and decides to make a meal of it and you are now being arrested for being in possession of unauthorised ammo etc. as he is very keen to be seen as a hero of the force.

You then have a few weeks of embuggerance factor whilst you along with Firearms licencing, legal advisors etc etc try and educate him.

Meanwhile he then pulls over a proper deer stalker who has 7x57/275Rigby written on his ticket. And you have a box of 7x57 ammo which only says 7x57 ammunition on the box not 7x57/275Rigby and he gets all exited all over again...........)

 

[Orion]

You missed the bit about the letter of complaint to the Chief Constable and PCC regarding the over zealous action of one of his less than knowledgeable officers, who will shortly be on the receiving end of a unwanted interview without coffee.

 

[25 Sharps]

The NRa don’t seem to be too picky...

New Ammunition
for the Imperial
and Inter Counties
There is a new ammunition supplier for the Imperial and Inter Counties competitions: the Lithuanian company GGG. The NRA explains how and why GGG was chosen...
As some of you may be aware, 2014 was the last year of the RUAG contract for the supply of 155gr .308 ammunition for the Imperial Meeting and we have been working to identify ammunition suitable for the Imperial and Inter Counties competitions for this and future years.
After careful research we settled upon Lithuanian company GGG. They are a relatively small manufacturer of a variety of ammunition, and we have sold large quantities of their milspec 5.56mm and 7.62mm rounds over several years with no reported problems. Their modern factory machinery was sourced from reliable American manufacturers and we have a good relationship with their UK distributor Law Enforcement International (LEI).
The product from GGG uses their standard 7.62 milspec case and primer, suitable propellant sourced by GGG, and the Sierra 2155 MatchKing bullet, as used in the
GGG’s sponsorship of the Inter Counties will see team entry fees fall by over 50 per cent. Photo: LEI
RUAG ammunition for the last six years. GGG cases are used by the Birmingham Proof House for assembly of proof loads. The ammunition is of course CIP-compliant, and we have test figures from the Birmingham Proof Laboratory showing :
Max average working pressure: 3598 bar CIP conditions mean velocity: 2822 ft/sec
(24” barrel, .300 / .308 & CIP Chamber Dimensions).
Velocity SD 13.3
LEI provided an initial sample of 400 rounds. This was followed by a larger prototype batch. We gave small samples to respected target shooters to try. With encouraging reports from those, we included a sample
in the batch testing of ammunition for
the 2014 Imperial Meeting, and used the ammunition during the Purples match in May 2014 with no reported problems and good results in a wide variety of target rifles.
Our own test figures, which come from 30” barrels with typical TR internal dimensions fired from a test rig at 200 yards (rather than CIP standard test barrels and conditions) indicate mean values over three 10-shot test strings:
Velocity 2979 ft/sec
Velocity SD 11.7
Extreme spread as a proportion of v-bull
size 0.66
Those figures are towards the top end
of the velocity range of RUAG batches from 2012 to 2014, and at the median of grouping capability of the batches used in the 2014 Imperial Meeting.
GGG was selected to supply competition grade ammunition for the NRA late in 2014, and the production run of the
2015 ammunition is nearly completed. GGG’s ammunition offers both excellent performance and exceptional value; pricing per round will be around 78 pence for competition/ retail sale compared to 99 pence for the recent RUAG ammunition.
We have decided to invest the resulting savings to reduce TR entry fees for the Imperial by 9.5 per cent in real terms (7.5 per cent year on year), meaning block A and B entry fee will be £460 (£498 in 2014); and increase youth subsidies to 40 per cent for all competitors aged under 25.
GGG and LEI have kindly agreed to sponsor the Inter Counties. Their generosity means team entry fees are reduced to £400 for 2015 compared to £895 last year.
NEWS | Ammunition
National Rifle Association 47




As you presumably have already acquired and fired the 7.62 brass legally, I am curious why you think reloading it with a 300 calibre soft point would make it illegal.

Alan

they are good but the 2019 batch of 155 gr have some rounds loaded with hot primers, now a known issue after several bolts were damaged by over pressure rounds! Which is why it’s currently being sold at a discounted rate from the range office

 

[25 Sharps]

The bored jobsworth police officer who pulls you over because you have mud on your number plate, and then sees that you are wearing stalking type gear, and on his PNC check he sees your FAC flagged up and decides he needs to check the rifle, and then asks do you have ammunition and because he is keen to impress his training officer (or to **** off his colleage) he looks a the headstamp of the ammunition and it says 7.62x51 not 308 Winchester which is what it says on your FAC. He gets all exited and does not understand your perfectly rational explanation and decides to make a meal of it and you are now being arrested for being in possession of unauthorised ammo etc. as he is very keen to be seen as a hero of the force.

You then have a few weeks of embuggerance factor whilst you along with Firearms licencing, legal advisors etc etc try and educate him.

Meanwhile he then pulls over a proper deer stalker who has 7x57/275Rigby written on his ticket. And you have a box of 7x57 ammo which only says 7x57 ammunition on the box not 7x57/275Rigby and he gets all exited all over again...........)

very few officers who’ve pulled you over on a routine stop would know the difference between .243&.308 let alone .308 and 7.62. Have been pulled over 4 times whilst shooting, twice no questions about the guns, once asked to show the guns were not loaded in the vehicle and once what Calibres we were using. Never have they asked to see ammo or magazine, I’d have some fun. I use 7.62 brass for .308, 5.56 and.223 for 25-45 and .223 AI and .243 and .308 formed to 6.5 creedmoor........ I’ve never worried about it

 

[25 Sharps]

7.62 at Bisley if you are a NRA member to be used on the day. Not on FAC as its only .308. Use the brass for .308 bullet head/ load, would it qualify as .308 as if stopped midway to the range, the crimp shows 7.62, which the FAC doesn't allow but its not 7.62 factory but .308 homeload. This was my confusion. Also thought 1899 Hague Declaration prohibitted the use of expanding bullets and I wasn't sure if NATO made ammo for hunting, hence my view (which could be wrong) but wanted to know from a legal perspective.

Practically I will be putting a variation for .308/ 7.62 making it easier and not having to worry about it, but it was one of those things I wanted to know. As I mentioned earlier, its more of a theoretical question.

as you say just get .308/7.62 on your ticket, even the FLDs aren’t that clued up, I added 7.62x54 to my ticket a few years back inc 400 rods of ammo. Ticket came back with a slot for rifle but no ammo, the admin’s response when I pointed this out was ‘l didn’t think you needed more as you already have 400 rounds of 7.62 on your certificate.’ She had missed the .308/ next to it, or had not realised 7.62x54 was a different cartridge

 

[Laurie]

they are good but the 2019 batch of 155 gr have some rounds loaded with hot primers, now a known issue after several bolts were damaged by over pressure rounds! Which is why it’s currently being sold at a discounted rate from the range office

When the NRA was forced to move to commercially supplied ammunition some years back, and sought bids / undertook range tests from prospective suppliers, key elements of the specification were 1) loaded with the original 155gn Sierra MK p/n 2155 which usually mikes out at 0.3083" diameter, and 2) must be loaded to be within CIP maximum pressure in the slightly 'tight' barrels normally used in 'Target Rifle' builds.

Many early TR rifles (ie from 1968 when 0.303" 'Service Rifle' was replaced by 7.62mm 'Target Rifle') were set up for really undersize bullets in military spec 7.62mm ball. Against the US SAAMI 308 calibre specs of 0.300 / 0.3080" (lands/groove diameters), some were reputedly as small as 0.296 / 0.306 or even smaller. When the UK MoD replaced the old 146gn 7.62mm 'Green Spot' sniper round with the 155gn FMJBT version in the 1980s following the Falklands War showing up how poor the L42A1 / 146gn ammo combination was, this bullet was larger diameter, but still I believe a bit smaller than Sierra and other match 30-cal bullets. Gunsmiths stuck with undersize barrels, but nothing like as much as earlier. IIRC current barrels are usually somewhere around 0.298" / 0.3075-0.3078" (across lands / grooves) subject to minor individual preferences. A CIP spec 308 Win round loaded up fully with the 0.308" SMK could be over-pressure in such a barrel and the NRA contract called for what in effect was a mild charge reduction to provide ~2,925 fps MV from a 30-inch barrel within allowable pressures. The initial NRA spec (RWS marque) ammo supplied by RUAG in the blue boxes performed very well for the first couple of years without any problems. One subsequent year (ie production lot as there was one run each year), I can't remember when, turned out to be over-pressure in some rifles, especially on hot summer days and was returned to RUAG as unsatisfactory. RUAG retested it in a standard SAAMI/CIP spec test barrel (ie 300/3080) and it was all within allowable pressures, so the comapny repackaged it as RWS 308 Win Match and put it on the commercial market for sale and .... you guessed it, at least some ended up back here. The NRA then had to put an advice that this 308 Win ammo could not be safely fired in 308 Win marked and proofed rifles made to TR specifications and banned it from Bisley.

I don't know the story of the GGG match ammo that gave problems a few years later, this company having now got the NRA contract, but I imagine that something similar applied.

 

[enfieldspares]

There are at least two cartridges that I know of that are identical but where cases may be encountered for historical marketing reasons with different headstamps. They would be .244 Remington and 6mm Remington (which are the same) and 7mm Remington Express and .280 Remington (which are the same).

Additionally of course 8mm Mauser aka 8x57 is the same case as German military 7.92x57 and British 7.92mm BESA. I had an 8x57 stalking rifle many years and it digested surplus German 7.92x57 and British 7,92mm BESA quite happily as long as the barrel was boiled out after use (corrosive primers).