7mm-08 non-lea reloading with Fox bullets

Pine Marten

Well-Known Member
I know you guys really like a kit story so here's one for you. I decided to take the plunge into non-lead before the rush, and having read good things about Fox bullets, and what with them being reasonably reliably available through Edinburgh rifles, not from the US but from Europe, I bought some in the summer after a helpful phone call. Using the load from their published data for their factory loads as a starting point (39gr of Viht N140), I loaded a ladder of test loads. Took ages to find a time to go and test them at Bisley, given the additional daft NRA requirement of a specific non-lead zeroing test beforehand. Anyway, finally made it, and after finding the discipline to leave the barrel of my stutzen to cool 3 minutes between shots, here is the result. From top left in a Z pattern, with the central one as a final flourish, 39.5gr to 41.5gr. Always amazing how a tiny increment makes a huge difference. We're staying with 40.5gr, and ready for the future. (There's a hole in the bottom right target from the guy to my left who got confused. Happens to all of us.. )

20221109_151623.webp
 
Glad you made it to Bisley and apologies I couldn’t do a midweek session as discussed.

I’m not convinced about this letting the barrel cool between shots albeit you certainly need to understand where your first shot from a cold (and clean?) barrel is going to hit.

Are you saying the bottom left 3-shot group is what you’re settling on load wise?

K
 
I’m not convinced about this letting the barrel cool between shots albeit you certainly need to understand where your first shot from a cold (and clean?) barrel is going to hit.

Are you saying the bottom left 3-shot group is what you’re settling on load wise?

K
Regarding the cold barrel, the first shot at the NRA special non-lead zeroing target was exactly above the centre, but high, as you'd expect for a 130gr bullet, since the rifle was zeroed for a 150gr lead one. And then I tried to follow up too fast and it all started drifting right. At which point I let it cool down completely, and the next shot was back where it was supposed to be. Subsequently I left the barrel to cool down between shots on the normal zeroing target. So it does seem to be a thing. Anyway, yes, I'm going with the bottom left hand load. Bottom right and centre were 41gr and 41.5gr of N140 and those groups are awful. So 40.5gr it is.
 
So
I know you guys really like a kit story so here's one for you. I decided to take the plunge into non-lead before the rush, and having read good things about Fox bullets, and what with them being reasonably reliably available through Edinburgh rifles, not from the US but from Europe, I bought some in the summer after a helpful phone call. Using the load from their published data for their factory loads as a starting point (39gr of Viht N140), I loaded a ladder of test loads. Took ages to find a time to go and test them at Bisley, given the additional daft NRA requirement of a specific non-lead zeroing test beforehand. Anyway, finally made it, and after finding the discipline to leave the barrel of my stutzen to cool 3 minutes between shots, here is the result. From top left in a Z pattern, with the central one as a final flourish, 39.5gr to 41.5gr. Always amazing how a tiny increment makes a huge difference. We're staying with 40.5gr, and ready for the future. (There's a hole in the bottom right target from the guy to my left who got confused. Happens to all of us.. )

View attachment 280818
Sorry to highjack but does the lead free zero apply to factory loads too?
 
Good write up and glad you have a load that works.

And wonder when the NRA will get into 20th century let alone the 21st.

And how is the ricochet envelope of an expanding non lead bullet any different to non expanding military ball ammo or target ammo all of which have a tough non expanding or deforming copper gilding metal jacket which is solid at the front and doesn’t deform when it hits a solid sloping target.

A mushroom copper bullet if it does ricochet will not fly as far as a minimally deformed solid military style bullet.
 
My first 3 round with fox looked like yours buck shot ! i
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So I got hold of ED who told me to load them shorter
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last time i was asked to shoot pre stalking by an agent Cold barrel 3 shots
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Any data to back this up, or is it another one of your 'facts'?
Its a supposition based on simple fact that a mushroomed bullet is a very draggy object and thus will slow down very quickly compared to a streamlined bullet.

It’s basic physics and aerodynamics, which anybody who has driven a landrover would understand.
 
My first 3 round with fox looked like yours buck shot ! i
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So I got hold of ED who told me to load them shorter
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last time i was asked to shoot pre stalking by an agent Cold barrel 3 shots
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I think perhaps you didn't post that picture correctly which is a shame as I wanted to see it.
 
Its a supposition based on simple fact that a mushroomed bullet is a very draggy object and thus will slow down very quickly compared to a streamlined bullet.

It’s basic physics and aerodynamics, which anybody who has driven a landrover would understand.
I don't quite follow where you get the "mushroomed bullet" from in this scenario.

The reason a land-rover slows down very quickly owes more to its transmission (or unreliability) than drag.
 
Yes. And what's more you're supposed.to do it every time you shoot. So I'm glad I worked that one out in one go.
I did the non-toxic zero yesterday and they said I was good for a year with that specific rifle - they keep the target on file for ref. If challenged, so not sure you have to zero each time you shoot? I do anyway but that’s me.
 
My first 3 round with fox looked like yours buck shot ! i
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So I got hold of ED who told me to load them shorter
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last time i was asked to shoot pre stalking by an agent Cold barrel 3 shots
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I shot a group of 5 120g factory Foxes yesterday for 1.5 MOA at 100 - looked like buckshot compared with Sako Powerblade and Norma Evo touching holes but if I kept the barrel hot, the POI moved by about 1MOA. All minute of deer, so I’m pleased. More practice and maybe some technique tuition would improve that, I’m sure.
 
You can now, as long as you go though a check-zero procedure and register it with them. It’s new since March this year I believe. It’s been written up in SD as well if you do a search.
 
I still don't understand why this rule exists. What is the problem with monolithic bullets? Or indeed how is it different for any projectile? It just needs to end up in the sandbank or bullet catcher. It doesn't matter what it's made of. Why would people using non-lead bullets have less well zeroed rifles than others?
 
Any data to back this up, or is it another one of your 'facts'?
The statement was set up to appear insightful while actually biased.

We are striking a solid sloping target? The copper bullet has of course mushroomed while the fmj has only distorted minimally. Really?

Well if the copper bullet does not impact directly on the nose why should is necessarily mushroom? These things are as hard as hell so why does an impact on the side cause anything other than similar distortion to the fmj which is made predominantly of a much softer metal? The fmj has clearly suffered only a glancing impact or it would have vaporised.

Same conditions please.

Maybe what is described is what happens, maybe the nose construction means it does distort more, but it is not as intuitively obvious as was suggest, there is the question of how exactly does a monolith distort in the event of striking a solid sloping target.

He may need help getting his Landy out of reverse
 
The statement was set up to appear insightful while actually biased.

We are striking a solid sloping target? The copper bullet has of course mushroomed while the fmj has only distorted minimally. Really?

Well if the copper bullet does not impact directly on the nose why should is necessarily mushroom? These things are as hard as hell so why does an impact on the side cause anything other than similar distortion to the fmj which is made predominantly of a much softer metal? The fmj has clearly suffered only a glancing impact or it would have vaporised.

Same conditions please.

Maybe what is described is what happens, maybe the nose construction means it does distort more, but it is not as intuitively obvious as was suggest, there is the question of how exactly does a monolith distort in the event of striking a solid sloping target.

He may need help getting his Landy out of reverse
A couple of further thoughts.

1) on the the range we have had plenty of monolithic bullets hit hardox plate targets. The bullets appear to splatter - admittedly they have hit at close to right angles.

2) hunting bullets, whether lead or mono are designed to expand on impact. Most monolithics have a good sized holopoint which will likely deform even hitting a sloping target.

3) monolithics are made from similar materials to jackets on target or military ammo. A lot of military ammo is steel cored. With many they are designed not to deform.

4) the Danger area for military ranges and those such as Bisley are worked out on the basis of military or target ammo and the safe area in the event of a ricochet or a round going above the backstop through negligence

5) as many constantly say, copper is less dense than lead, so for a same velocity it will carry less energy. This means the bullet with less energy will be slowed more by drag of the air and thus will travel less far.

6) add to the above that a hollow nosed bullet likely will deform to greater extent, even if off a sloping surface, than an equivalent solid target type bullet, it will Be less aerodynamically effecient and thus more affected by drag from the air and thus will fly less far.

I don’t really see how monolithic hunting, or indeed target bullets can be considered any less or more safe than any other type of bullet. Any bullet if fired at a hard sloping surface will ricochet where there is no control over where it goes.

But any bullet can easily enough be captured in a decent sand trap, earth bund or decent soft ground.
 
There we are, I have now entered the non-toxic age. All lead rounds pulled and recycled. Roll on next week!

View attachment 294682
Looks like a Fox Classic Hunter. I’m impressed with them. Shot around 25 animals with them now. No issues - very confident in their abilities. About to try the Peregrine VKR as well. Be nice to have an alternative. Just in case.
 
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