A few basic questions from a beginner stalker

[SD198]

Hi all - apologies in advance if I am about to ask some v basic/ stupid questions, but I'd rather ask anyway to be sure! I have been shooting small quarry with .22LR for a good few years now and I am just about to start stalking deer with my first full bore rifle (a .308) and I have a few questions:

1. when I did my stalking course, coming from a .22LR I asked about ricochet and was basically told it is not an issue you need to worry about with deer calibre rifles as I was told the bullet will be travelling at such a high speed it will disintegrate as soon as it hits anything. I have, however, since seen some quiet shocking .308 ricochets on Youtube - some when fired at a muddy track which apparently had "some stones in it". How much of a concern are ricochets in a .308 (or deer rounds generally)?

2. on the same theme (and the answers to this will I am sure overlap with those to Q1) - for a shot at a deer off shooting sticks to be considered safe enough to take, roughly what degree of upward slope/ bank to the ground would be needed to be considered a safe backstop (ie with no/ minimal risk of the bullet passing through a ricocheting etc) - as I have seen some shots on YouTube where the slope behind looked pretty minor...

3. finally, .308 ammunition. I have a few questions:

(a) I presume that, as with .22LR, each .308 rifle will "prefer"/ shoot more consistently with a certain type of ammunition? If so, is there any .308 ammo that is generally considered to be "more generally acceptable" to most rifles than others (again, as there seems to be with .22LR), so I know what to start with?

(b) is it necessary to "lead in" a .308 barrel by firing X number (usually between 20-50 with my .22LR) of the same brand of rounds first, before zero'ing?

(c) when selecting .308 ammo for deer (roe and less often fallow) are there any particular "features" of the ammo that I should be particularly looking out for?

(d)And finally (and I'm sure there will be divergent views on this one!), I have noticed that there is a wide range of .308 ammo in terms of price - is it a case of "you get what you pay for" (in which case I am happy to pay the extra as I will not be shooting many rounds)?

Thanks for any advice!

 

[Cottis]

You can never worry too much about bakstops, safety and thinking "what if" Once that shot is released, it aint coming back and although a centre fire bullet is less likely to richochet that a much slower .22LR round, I would not say you "need not worry about it" as you were told on your course. I find that incredible that you were told that. I bet the person who told you that would not stand a few yards from an area that he claims will happily swallow a .308 shot

I am always challenging myself and asking questions. Is that safe? What if? Could there be someone over there? How hard is the ground? etc etc. When I go out shooting with friends for example at night and I a not familiar with the ground, I will do the lamping and they can do the shooting as they know the terrain.

Once the trigger is squeezed, there is no going back. There will always be another deer or fox or rabbit or whatever to shoot. If in doubt, don't. That would be my advice but experience with different calibres will see you be much more comfortable with making quicker and quicker decisions based upon past experience and increased familiarity with the your ground and rifle.

Most hunting rounds tends to be copper jacketed, so there is no leading in off a barrel. You will get some copper build up over time and I wont suggest whether you should or how often you might clean a barrel. Everyone is different. I personally find my rifles like having a couple of shots through them after a deep clean to have them shooting perfectly for a good many rounds. For me, a controlled build up of copper provides a consistent environment down the barrel that my bullets seem to like. I am very keen on absolute accuracy and this works for me. All rifles can be a bit different with some more picky than others.

Ammo wise, for me, I find variables like weight/design of bullet will be more important factors in CF rifles, whereas my rimfires are just weird about all types of ammo. For example, some 40grain lead will be fine out of the .22LR while others wont. Rimfire ammo is inherently inaccurate due to the design and limitations during production. CF is the opposite. Much easier to control and I get some stunning accuracy from basic Federal ammunition. Plenty for you to choose from. Maybe try the cheapest first because if it shoots great for you, then brilliant. If not, move on to something else until you find what works.

 

[kimh]

1. backdrop isn't a 6mm piece of ply if in doubt don't squeeze - yes a muddy track surface is vulnerable
2. 100yds+ 15degs - 50yrds 45degs
3.
a) 150gr German round in a German barrel and visa versa
b) nope, we need copper but not copper sulphate
c) blitzking
d) not alway's to hit a 4" area, however, if you want to hit bonb or eights yes and that why we try a different factory ammo/load or seak the likes of David Muir

 

[deerstalker.308]

I’ve had ricochet’s with .308 with a fallow I head shot, heard the bullet zing back over the top of me and I was about 60m from the deer, sobering. I have no idea what it hit which would allow auch an event but it happened! And judging by many of the rounds I’ve collextes over the years embedded in deer, they really don’t disintegrate as soon as the hit, they deform, or at least most do, so it will go somewhere.

 

[kimh]

wherein Hampshire are you?

 

[bogtrotter]

Expanding bullets are not guilty of ricocheting but that does not mean they can't always keep in mind they can and do

Always make sure you have a back stop the best back stop is an earth bank.

Find a bullet that suits your rifle , your rifle may prefer one make or bullet weight over another.

 

[NigelM]

Hi all - apologies in advance if I am about to ask some v basic/ stupid questions, but I'd rather ask anyway to be sure! I have been shooting small quarry with .22LR for a good few years now and I am just about to start stalking deer with my first full bore rifle (a .308) and I have a few questions:

1. when I did my stalking course, coming from a .22LR I asked about ricochet and was basically told it is not an issue you need to worry about with deer calibre rifles as I was told the bullet will be travelling at such a high speed it will disintegrate as soon as it hits anything. I have, however, since seen some quiet shocking .308 ricochets on Youtube - some when fired at a muddy track which apparently had "some stones in it". How much of a concern are ricochets in a .308 (or deer rounds generally)?

2. on the same theme (and the answers to this will I am sure overlap with those to Q1) - for a shot at a deer off shooting sticks to be considered safe enough to take, roughly what degree of upward slope/ bank to the ground would be needed to be considered a safe backstop (ie with no/ minimal risk of the bullet passing through a ricocheting etc) - as I have seen some shots on YouTube where the slope behind looked pretty minor...

3. finally, .308 ammunition. I have a few questions:

(a) I presume that, as with .22LR, each .308 rifle will "prefer"/ shoot more consistently with a certain type of ammunition? If so, is there any .308 ammo that is generally considered to be "more generally acceptable" to most rifles than others (again, as there seems to be with .22LR), so I know what to start with?

(b) is it necessary to "lead in" a .308 barrel by firing X number (usually between 20-50 with my .22LR) of the same brand of rounds first, before zero'ing?

(c) when selecting .308 ammo for deer (roe and less often fallow) are there any particular "features" of the ammo that I should be particularly looking out for?

(d)And finally (and I'm sure there will be divergent views on this one!), I have noticed that there is a wide range of .308 ammo in terms of price - is it a case of "you get what you pay for" (in which case I am happy to pay the extra as I will not be shooting many rounds)?

Thanks for any advice!

I would take a paid stalk with SikaMalc who has ground not far from you in Sussex. He is a mine of sensible information and you can quiz him as much as you like as you go round - providing the deer aren't listening of course

 

[rem284]

The only guaranteed way of never to have the risk of ricochets is never to shoot, just the same as never to have a wounded animal. I was involved in culling deer, when sometimes they would be in large groups. Several times I had 2 deer shot with one bullet and once it was 3 deer with one bullet. I of course did not want this to happen and tried to select the shots taken to prevent it but it did happen. I mentioned it to another guy and he described a client shooting a stag and some 300 yards a way another one had been shot and killed by the same bullet, I know the guy and he is very particular and would not have wanted this to happen. These type of things dont happen every day but if you do it often enough and over a long time you do come across them. It certainly opened my eyes up and made me think more about "what is a safe shot".

 

[Chasey]

Hi all - apologies in advance if I am about to ask some v basic/ stupid questions, but I'd rather ask anyway to be sure! I have been shooting small quarry with .22LR for a good few years now and I am just about to start stalking deer with my first full bore rifle (a .308) and I have a few questions:

1. when I did my stalking course, coming from a .22LR I asked about ricochet and was basically told it is not an issue you need to worry about with deer calibre rifles as I was told the bullet will be travelling at such a high speed it will disintegrate as soon as it hits anything. I have, however, since seen some quiet shocking .308 ricochets on Youtube - some when fired at a muddy track which apparently had "some stones in it". How much of a concern are ricochets in a .308 (or deer rounds generally)?

2. on the same theme (and the answers to this will I am sure overlap with those to Q1) - for a shot at a deer off shooting sticks to be considered safe enough to take, roughly what degree of upward slope/ bank to the ground would be needed to be considered a safe backstop (ie with no/ minimal risk of the bullet passing through a ricocheting etc) - as I have seen some shots on YouTube where the slope behind looked pretty minor...

3. finally, .308 ammunition. I have a few questions:

(a) I presume that, as with .22LR, each .308 rifle will "prefer"/ shoot more consistently with a certain type of ammunition? If so, is there any .308 ammo that is generally considered to be "more generally acceptable" to most rifles than others (again, as there seems to be with .22LR), so I know what to start with?

(b) is it necessary to "lead in" a .308 barrel by firing X number (usually between 20-50 with my .22LR) of the same brand of rounds first, before zero'ing?

(c) when selecting .308 ammo for deer (roe and less often fallow) are there any particular "features" of the ammo that I should be particularly looking out for?

(d)And finally (and I'm sure there will be divergent views on this one!), I have noticed that there is a wide range of .308 ammo in terms of price - is it a case of "you get what you pay for" (in which case I am happy to pay the extra as I will not be shooting many rounds)?

Thanks for any advice!

With a round like a 308 back stops are very important. Its a heavy round and designed to go through and through leaving a sucking wound (fatel fast) and a lot of blood for you to follow to the animal. You will need to track most of them

For this reason we need very good back stops and my general rule is can I see ground behind and above the animal and what angle am I shooting.

SO from a high seat with a foot of ground + above the animal and a downwards shiot Ill go for it but stood on the ground with a flat or possably up hill shot a foot is nowhere neer enough.

Sadly the path of the buillett is rarely straight and it can deflect off at odd angles leaving the beast.

2: Shooting of sticks is a totally diferent skill set to shooting prone or in a high seat. My personal opinion is you should get some venison in the fridge from a high seat before attempting sticks so the adrenalin is less of an issue and you need to do a few practice shots on deer targets to see if you can do it. In a recent shooting test for a trainee not one of five attempts was a clean kill shot and two of the shots were v bad low gut and high and far back intestine. Don't underestimate the chalange of stick shooting and again back stop becomes more important due to potential miss shots.

3: 308 is as I say the perfict heart shot round and for that a simple soft point round will do. Federal Power Shock is commonly available and found by many to be accurate and hard hitting. Its also cheep

B: After cleaning ill put a few (like 5-6) through to remove the cleaning fluid but after that its single shots for the rest of the seasion or three or four to check zero.

C: IMHO Soft point and not too fast as you will do too much meet damage.

D: Not realy it just depends on wht your rifle likes and dislikes. I know many who shoot PPU all day and love it but it didn't work in my rifel so I ended up with Sako Hammer Head which is expensive but in my 243 I shoot Federal Power SHok (paid 25 a box) and I can get sub MOA at 100 no problem with that.

However the best and most consistant rounds will always be home loads.

 

[8x57]

Rimfire ammo is inherently inaccurate due to the design and limitations during production.

There a couple of minor points made in the various replies given that personally I wouldn't be in total agreement with, but the claim that .22 rimfire is inherently inaccurate I must say that I absolutely disagree with. The .22lr round can be fantastically accurate within it's design limitations.

 

[kimh]

There a couple of minor points made in the various replies given that personally I wouldn't be in total agreement with, but the claim that .22 rimfire is inherently inaccurate I must say that I absolutely disagree with. The .22lr round can be fantastically accurate within it's design limitations.

agree

 

[Erik Hamburger]

Hi all - apologies in advance if I am about to ask some v basic/ stupid questions, but I'd rather ask anyway to be sure! I have been shooting small quarry with .22LR for a good few years now and I am just about to start stalking deer with my first full bore rifle (a .308) and I have a few questions:

1. when I did my stalking course, coming from a .22LR I asked about ricochet and was basically told it is not an issue you need to worry about with deer calibre rifles as I was told the bullet will be travelling at such a high speed it will disintegrate as soon as it hits anything. I have, however, since seen some quiet shocking .308 ricochets on Youtube - some when fired at a muddy track which apparently had "some stones in it". How much of a concern are ricochets in a .308 (or deer rounds generally)?

2. on the same theme (and the answers to this will I am sure overlap with those to Q1) - for a shot at a deer off shooting sticks to be considered safe enough to take, roughly what degree of upward slope/ bank to the ground would be needed to be considered a safe backstop (ie with no/ minimal risk of the bullet passing through a ricocheting etc) - as I have seen some shots on YouTube where the slope behind looked pretty minor...

3. finally, .308 ammunition. I have a few questions:

(a) I presume that, as with .22LR, each .308 rifle will "prefer"/ shoot more consistently with a certain type of ammunition? If so, is there any .308 ammo that is generally considered to be "more generally acceptable" to most rifles than others (again, as there seems to be with .22LR), so I know what to start with?

(b) is it necessary to "lead in" a .308 barrel by firing X number (usually between 20-50 with my .22LR) of the same brand of rounds first, before zero'ing?

(c) when selecting .308 ammo for deer (roe and less often fallow) are there any particular "features" of the ammo that I should be particularly looking out for?

(d)And finally (and I'm sure there will be divergent views on this one!), I have noticed that there is a wide range of .308 ammo in terms of price - is it a case of "you get what you pay for" (in which case I am happy to pay the extra as I will not be shooting many rounds)?

Thanks for any advice!

1. Not much of a concern providing you use UK deer-legal (expanding) amo. With target/FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) or Subsonic .308W ricochets could be an issue.
2. Depends on soil and how soft/hard it is....stones, or soft wet land? If the horizon is above the back of the deer at say twice the height of the deer, you are generally safe. More experienced rifle shooters will shoot at much narrower margins than that.
3. a. Stick to factory loaded amo, the cheaper Brands often perform as well - and sometimes better- than Premium Brands and /or home-loads. The difference between bargain-brands factory loaded, V. home-loads, V. premium Brands factory loaded, in group sizes at 100 yards are generally so small that, at normal stalking distances, it doesn't matter at all. BTW never accept home-loads from a 3rd. party - I have had some very badly home-produced amo from well-meaning people.
3.b. No. New rifle out of the box, zero it, ready to go. No need for 'shooting in' a barrel at all.
3.c. Buy 'deer-legal' (expanding) amo. There are some differences between Scotland and England so that could potentially be an issue. If not sure check with your retailer. BASC also has a very good advice service.
3.d. See my answer at 3.a.

I know some will disagree with some of my answers - however as a beginner, not shooting much deer, at typical average distances (30-70 Yards) and shooting deer broadside (heart/lunch -as to 'Best Practice') you'll be fine using a basic Brand factory amo such as Federal Power-Shok or Sako Hammerhead.

Good luck and enjoy your hunting, stalking and shooting!

 

[Cottis]

There a couple of minor points made in the various replies given that personally I wouldn't be in total agreement with, but the claim that .22 rimfire is inherently inaccurate I must say that I absolutely disagree with. The .22lr round can be fantastically accurate within it's design limitations.

For sure it is accurate "within its design limitations" ha ha ha. That is the whole point that you made very well. Almost like saying the one legged guy hopped down the 100m strip really well but it doesn't make him a world beating sprinter does it?

 

[stubear]

Some good answers here to your questions.

I would definitely recommend trying Federal Power Shok in 150gn for deer. It shoots very accurately in my rifle (to the point where I'm starting to question why I want to home load..) and I know a lot of other people who use it to good effect as well, including in other calibers. You can often find it for less than £30 a box which for hunting ammo is pretty reasonable, there's not much cheaper than that apart from PPU!

 

[baguio]

Not sure what course the OP went on but the DSC1 practical sets up just such scenarios where ricochets could be a possibility. Say that you would shoot anyway will result in a big fat fail. To say that you don't need to worry about richochets when firing guns is plain stupid be it a a garden gun, an air rifle or a 30-06. Take one in the eye or hit someone else and you will wish that you had worried about it! You may find yourself with lots of spare time to think about your shot after the event too?

 

[HertsMark]

SD198 - like you an newbie so good questions and thanks everyone for the info/advice. I have lots to learn!

 

[sir-lamp-alot]

1. who ever told you that deer legal rounds dont ricochet was wrong all bullets can, do and will off just about anything and can, will and do go off in any direction

2. only you can really answer this as only you are going to be held responsible for each and every shot you fire, a .308 can punch through a lot of "stuff" and goes a long way so bare that in mind when taking your shots and use the experince of your .22lr shooting and you will be fine.

3a. like the rest of us i'm affraid its time to get your hand in your pocket and buy a few boxes of ammo and see what your rifle likes best see what your local gun shop normally stocks and try them 1st also if you get a 2nd hand rifle try and find out what ammo the owner previous was using and try that 1st.

3b. some people run in a new barrel some just get on and use it straight out the box, so choose what you want to do but genneral no you wont have to settle a barrel into each type of ammo you will just test 4 or 5 rounds to see how they group then if your happy get on and zero it.

3c. any soft nose bullet around the 150gr mark will do the job for you avoid light fast highly frangabile rounds these will be to damaging to the meat.

3d. your rifle will dictate what ammo it likes regaurdless of what it costs or who makes it but what i would say is try the likes of (and in no paticular order) sako, federal and winchester all of these makes do sensible deer rounds