Am I presuming too much? A 'closed ticket' Question...

[Qwertyzmate]

Hi All,

Question for the collective wisdom...

I will start with the key question, then follow with the 'background' incase anything in it is needed...

Question: Can I assume that the 'ground' I used to apply for (and was granted) my 'across land' variation, is cleared for the calibres/species granted on my FAC? I was granted standard 'closed' conditions.


Background

Early 2019, granted FAC as a 'target only', i'm a member of a target club. Initially granted 2x.22lr's and a .223, put in a variation for a .38/357 under-lever and was granted straight away.

Fast forward to 12 months ago and due to networking I have been fortunate enough to get out with other shooters for rabbiting, foxing, stalking etc. I have gained a couple of permissions so in goes the paperwork for 'across land' variation for my .22LR's, .223 and a please can I have a .17hmr for pest/vermin/target etc.... I provide the details of 'A SINGLE' permission to support my application and had my subsequent visit from the FEO (who I have met a couple of times now and seems reasonable enough), chatted, he said yes, Paperwork landed on the mat with all the expected calibres, ammo and 'conditions' discussed shortly after.

During the FEO visit we discussed how the 'land deemed suitable' bit worked and I was told 'ask the land owner if it's cleared, if they are sure it is, no need to second guess them. If not or not sure then email me and I can check/arrange a visit'. He went on to say 'often land owner don't know it is cleared' and 'clearance is valid for 10 years' and 'it can be renewed by a quick call sometimes to see if there are any major new developments on the ground'. Seems reasonable to me at the time.

Fast forward to now, new (very good for me and them) permission - call up the local team they say 'send an email, we're processing June ones at the moment'... bit of discussion and the result was 'mark it as urgent and we will see if we can get to it sooner'.... I decided to leave a voicemail and email with the FEO too!

So Im now thinking about the likely hood of the ground being cleared already...

I have trawled through the archives here and have come across may threads that have made me come to a few assumptions/conclusions (not that I will stake my licence on them!)

If a landowner is granted permission for a FAC to shoot their own ground but does not have an 'open' ticket, it's fair to presume the land is cleared to the calibres the hold a FAC for?
As this FAC would be renewed every 5 years it's safe to presume the ground 'clearance' is current?

My reason for concern is that I have subsequently heard that 'ground deemed suitable' and on the database of the licensing teams; and land given as 'good reason' on my application are not nessacerally checked against each other and the onus is on me to ensure that the ground is cleared... basically 'good reason' was proved by having a permission from a land owner but nobody has confirmed the land is 'cleared'...

As I regularly shoot the ground provided as 'good reason', it would be a bit crap to find out now that its not 'cleared'. not sure if i really want to raise this with the FEO!!

 

[palmer_mike]

Sorry, I can’t make it all the way through the above

Do you have a closed or open FAC. If unsure what is the exact wording of your condition? Land deemed suitable by police?

If closed drop your FLD and email to ask if land is passed for the calibre your intend to use

 

[Cottis]

The people who you shoot with on this new ground? Do they have open conditions on their certificates. ie, they only need permission from the landowner to shoot over the land rather than the Chief of Police having assessed the land for suitability of cartridges applied for by another party? Or do they have closed condition certs?

That would be one way to safely assume. Or has the landowner themselves got firearms or have they previously had firearms, based on an application for their own land which they know previously has not been checked and they too have a closed condition ticket? If so, another situation where I would happily assume all was well.

But assumptions are the mother of all ballsups. It is your responsibility to make sure you abide by the conditions on your certificate. The police should absolutely know if the land is cleared on their database. If they are unable to confirm this, then it has either not been previously cleared or maybe was in the very distant past but no record is now had of it.

You having good reason to possess and own and use firearms for whatever pursuit, is not the same as land clearance. I know it seems daft but if your cert states you can only shoot over land which you have permission to be on and that has been cleared by the chief of police, then you must abide by those rules. Failure to ensure you are complying with those rules leave you open for potential issues, however small they might be.

My guess is that for most people, they apply for an FAC grant to shoot over land in the first instance and it is granted based on checking the person(s) who have given you permission to shoot and also checking the land has previously been cleared or will be cleared for the cartridges you have applied for. Becuase you have already got an FAC, you are just adding either rifles or conditions to it and the normal checking stuff maybe is not done as well as it otherwise would be.

 

[Qwertyzmate]

Thanks

Think I will check with the land owners the conditions on their license. If they are 'land deemed suitable' for just their own ground them I'm probably ok...

If they have 'open' tickets I might be pointing an oversight out to the FEO

 

[One on top of two]

Speak to your firearms office. They make your rules .

It’s make not a jot of difference what your land owner has or has not on there ticket.

You have to meet the conditions of your ticket .

 

[Hunter300]

Don’t assume ANYTHING, your FEO would appreciate the question rather than an “possible wrong doing”
Why not ask your FEO what the possibilities for an open ticket as I assume your permission file will be growing in the years to come

 

[Hunter300]

I will also say don’t go on “I think” or “possibly yes” …. Get facts in WRITING ad ifs and buds won’t safe your ticket when it comes to it

 

[palmer_mike]

Thanks

Think I will check with the land owners the conditions on their license. If they are 'land deemed suitable' for just their own ground them I'm probably ok...

If they have 'open' tickets I might be pointing an oversight out to the FEO

I don’t understand.
Contact your FLD and get confirmation that the land has been passed. If not it’s not a problem to get it inspected and passed surely?

 

[VSS]

I think your being overly convoluted in your thinking.
Just call your local force and ask them if it's cleared, and if so up to what calibre.
If it's not cleared for your calibre then ask them to either clear it or give you open conditions.

 

[Len the dog]

I was still only two years into my first FAC and having asked for clearance on my fifth piece of land at the same time as a CF variation, my FLD opened my ticket without me asking. May be worth asking if they can do the same.

 

[Tim.243]

Thanks

Think I will check with the land owners the conditions on their license. If they are 'land deemed suitable' for just their own ground them I'm probably ok...

If they have 'open' tickets I might be pointing an oversight out to the FEO

What do you do for a job as it suggests writing reports. TBH I lost the will to live 1/3rd of the way through and have helped a number of people on the path for an open ticket with a template letter..

 

[John Doe]

The whole ‘cleared’ land thing is a farce. If the FEO’s insist on pursuing it then it is up to them to ‘clear’ it not anyone else. No idea what you mean by ‘across land’?

 

[Qwertyzmate]

I don’t understand.
Contact your FLD and get confirmation that the land has been passed. If not it’s not a problem to get it inspected and passed surely?

Not a problem to get it done. It's more that i've been shooting it for a while now unknowing that it was not 'cleared' as part of the original grant process. That and the many months potential wait time that I was given on the phone by the nice lady at the FA office...

I have left an email and a voicemail with my FEO regarding adding/enquiring on a new permission directly, so when he calls I will ask about the status of the original one.

Lesson learned - don't expect the processes to be logical (or quick)

 

[Qwertyzmate]

The people who you shoot with on this new ground? Do they have open conditions on their certificates. ie, they only need permission from the landowner to shoot over the land rather than the Chief of Police having assessed the land for suitability of cartridges applied for by another party? Or do they have closed condition certs?

That would be one way to safely assume. Or has the landowner themselves got firearms or have they previously had firearms, based on an application for their own land which they know previously has not been checked and they too have a closed condition ticket? If so, another situation where I would happily assume all was well.

But assumptions are the mother of all ballsups. It is your responsibility to make sure you abide by the conditions on your certificate. The police should absolutely know if the land is cleared on their database. If they are unable to confirm this, then it has either not been previously cleared or maybe was in the very distant past but no record is now had of it.

You having good reason to possess and own and use firearms for whatever pursuit, is not the same as land clearance. I know it seems daft but if your cert states you can only shoot over land which you have permission to be on and that has been cleared by the chief of police, then you must abide by those rules. Failure to ensure you are complying with those rules leave you open for potential issues, however small they might be.

My guess is that for most people, they apply for an FAC grant to shoot over land in the first instance and it is granted based on checking the person(s) who have given you permission to shoot and also checking the land has previously been cleared or will be cleared for the cartridges you have applied for. Becuase you have already got an FAC, you are just adding either rifles or conditions to it and the normal checking stuff maybe is not done as well as it otherwise would be.

Thanks @Cottis , my overly long winded explanation was not very useful.

Essentially I was getting at your two first points: if the land owners FAC conditions are exactly the same as mine i.e. "closed' to their land only, it should stand to reason the land is cleared for calibres they use on it.

Yep, i will be checking with the FEO...

 

[MAH]

but nobody has confirmed the land is 'cleared'...

For me there are a few key points:
1. Yes some forces visit land and keep recoders. But i think you are reading too much into the word "cleard".
2. If your certificate list a rifle for a piece of land ( e.g fields north of b1234 at home farm). And your have written consent from the owner. Then you're authorised to shoot on that land.
3. However, safety is your responsibility. The person that fires the rifle is solely responsible for ensuring that it is safe to do so. So the land is not "cleared" as "safe". Ensuring safe backstop for all shots fired is your responsibility.
4. My open cert still lists a specific piece of land ( as evidence of good reason), but authorises me to shoot on other land that I have permission.
5 My understand, is that if your certificate only lists a piece of land (closed), then you're not authorised to shoot elsewhere, even if you have the landowner's permission.


So back to your questions
1st: You are authorised to shoot on the land listed on your certificate.
Last: Asking your FLO to visit the land and confirm it is "cleared" as safe might give them the impression that you don't understand your responsibility to ensure safe shooting.

M

 

[finnbear270]

Crock of.

 

[Qwertyzmate]

For me there are a few key points:
1. Yes some forces visit land and keep recoders. But i think you are reading too much into the word "cleard".
2. If your certificate list a rifle for a piece of land ( e.g fields north of b1234 at home farm). And your have written consent from the owner. Then you're authorised to shoot on that land.
3. However, safety is your responsibility. The person that fires the rifle is solely responsible for ensuring that it is safe to do so. So the land is not "cleared" as "safe". Ensuring safe backstop for all shots fired is your responsibility.
4. My open cert still lists a specific piece of land ( as evidence of good reason), but authorises me to shoot on other land that I have permission.
5 My understand, is that if your certificate only lists a piece of land (closed), then you're not authorised to shoot elsewhere, even if you have the landowner's permission.


So back to your questions
1st: You are authorised to shoot on the land listed on your certificate.
Last: Asking your FLO to visit the land and confirm it is "cleared" as safe might give them the impression that you don't understand your responsibility to ensure safe shooting.

M

Agreed.

I am absolutely clear that 'cleared' is not a guarantee of anything. 100% sure the buck stops with who pulls the trigger. Very happy with my safety procedures, I work in risk management as a 9-5.

My real question was whether at the time of granting my license, did the one and only piece of
land I supplied to the FEO as the 'good reason' get checked either against a database, or physically, that it meets the conditions for all of the calibres I have been granted on my license...

@MAH ,thanks. You seem to think it should be ok.

I would have presumed so to, it's just others have shown the seeds of doubt.

I will be checking, that's for certain

 

[VSS]

If it's any consolation, I'd had my FAC for nearly a year, shooting anywhere I could get permission, without even knowing there were such things as "open" or "closed" tickets. A FAC was a FAC as far as I knew. It later transpired that mine was closed, so I asked for it to be opened and it was.
I lived to tell the tale. The ground did not open up and swallow me down to the depths of hell for my misdemeanours.

 

[Qwertyzmate]

If it's any consolation, I'd had my FAC for nearly a year, shooting anywhere I could get permission, without even knowing there were such things as "open" or "closed" tickets. A FAC was a FAC as far as I knew. It later transpired that mine was closed, so I asked for it to be opened and it was.
I lived to tell the tale. The ground did not open up and swallow me down to the depths of hell for my misdemeanours.

Not worried, just seems stupid the system might have such a silly hole in it...

"here's your license to cover only the ground we say yes to", "oh, we didn't actually check the ground you used as 'good reason' was good enough "

 

[Liveonce]

If it's any consolation, I'd had my FAC for nearly a year, shooting anywhere I could get permission, without even knowing there were such things as "open" or "closed" tickets. A FAC was a FAC as far as I knew. It later transpired that mine was closed, so I asked for it to be opened and it was.
I lived to tell the tale. The ground did not open up and swallow me down to the depths of hell for my misdemeanours.

easy enough error, had a friend who only had an FAC by way of a rifle club, who assumed it was ok to go to his mates farm for a few rabbits with his .22lr