Another gun seizure

[kes]

Whatever precipitated this action, on the basis of what you are saying, it is completely unjustified.
What to do about it ?
Write the SAME letter to your MP and Chief Constable and note on each copy who the other recipient is.
Put down the essential facts as above and detail the timescales.
If you know your doctor, ask him if he will provide a statement confirming your continuing suitability to own firearms from a health viewpoint.
Ask BASC the name of a good firearms solicitor (previous membership should run to this), and send him a copy of the letter you send to the MP and Chief Con.
Confirm in that letter that as far as the facts dictate you believe that any complaint must have been malicious (doctors note), the process which occurred was an abuse abuse of the law as you know it and include a demand that you receive some response to the innumerable letters you have already sent which have not attracted a response - include details of all correspondence which has gone unanswered.
If what you say is correct and I have no reason to doubt that (and why should anyone else without investigation), how can your MP/ anyone allow discrimination on this scale to continue without a satisfactory response which will allow you to defend yourself against these allegations?
Confirm you will be seeking legal representations and mention the'receipt' incident (which I find appalling).
Good luck and if I can help, PM me.

In addition, I would contact SACS to advise them of your difficulties (send a copy of the letter) and ask if they can help you in any way, as some others of their older membership may face the same problems and ANY abuse of the law and position must be exposed and eliminated. Offer a membership fee and suggest you really need some professional help.
Cheers


Best regards and DONT give in !

 

[gmorrice96]

Good point from Kes above.

I would highly recommend that you keep a diary and note any detail as minor as you may think it is. go back as far as you can and only use factual information. I recommended that you don't contact the police or anybody else without getting good legal advice first, however if and when you do, log every letter and phone call you make. if making phone calls ask the persons name and include that as back up. the information you gather may prove invaluable and can easily be forgotten at a later date as these things often take a long time. some things you may think are insignificant may be of interest to a solicitor and may add weight to your case.

 

[nun_hunter]

Just remember we're only hearing one side of all of this. I'm not suggesting the OP is saying anything other than what he believes to be the truth but without knowing the facts we shouldn't be too hasty to agree and condem the neighbour, the police and any other part possibly involved in a conspiracy.

 

[dga3240]

A sincere thank you to everyone who has responded. I will do as suggested.

I now have a more local solicitor and speaking face to face should improve communications.
My brain is also beginning to work again and I think I can build a good case. All you want in old age is peace and quiet to get on with your hobbies and I could do without all this hassle -- which is probably why I am being harassed!

 

[Bert/Ernie]

Hi read your post and sounds very harsh what has happened. Try the scottish gamekeepers association they have a firearms lawyer called David McKie he is very good and helpful.

 

[purplepig]

I have been through something very similar, I had to put all of my firearms in with an rfd and surrender my tickets. I won't bore you with the story but I did nothing wrong but my brother had. We didn't live together either.I had also thrown a local policeman out of our pub and restraunt for using fowl language ,and made a formal complaint to the police. This was also a reason I was dealt with in such a way. Anyway I have a cousin who is an extremely good barrister- he was council for an operation in South Wales called operation rhino- it was a police corruption case. And without his help my situation would have gone on longer than 12 months- you are in a very simple position the police are not allowed to keep you in limbo- they have to by law either revoke your certificate or give you it back- there is no middle ground. All the advice I received to start with , from certain organisations who work closely with the police on a day to day basis wAs to appease them and co-operate. My cousin was far more aggressive and with the help of the mp my case was wrapped up very quickly. This is the logic you must employ: if you had done something wrong your certificates would have been revoked- you haven't done anything that can justify them revoking your tickets hence there need for you to surrender voluntarily. Email your mp and tell him they are not following the firearms law per the guidance , also insist your solicitor write to them insisting they revoke your Certs immediately or return them.. Also u will bill them for any further correspondence from your brief as they are not working within the law. They have to adhere to very strict guidelines and your case is very simple either you are suitable to be in possession or you are not- and they revoke giving you the option to appeal.
If you need any further help pm me and I will gladly give it to you..

 

[dga3240]

I have been through something very similar, I had to put all of my firearms in with an rfd and surrender my tickets. I won't bore you with the story but I did nothing wrong but my brother had. We didn't live together either.I had also thrown a local policeman out of our pub and restraunt for using fowl language ,and made a formal complaint to the police. This was also a reason I was dealt with in such a way. Anyway I have a cousin who is an extremely good barrister- he was council for an operation in South Wales called operation rhino- it was a police corruption case. And without his help my situation would have gone on longer than 12 months- you are in a very simple position the police are not allowed to keep you in limbo- they have to by law either revoke your certificate or give you it back- there is no middle ground. All the advice I received to start with , from certain organisations who work closely with the police on a day to day basis wAs to appease them and co-operate. My cousin was far more aggressive and with the help of the mp my case was wrapped up very quickly. This is the logic you must employ: if you had done something wrong your certificates would have been revoked- you haven't done anything that can justify them revoking your tickets hence there need for you to surrender voluntarily. Email your mp and tell him they are not following the firearms law per the guidance , also insist your solicitor write to them insisting they revoke your Certs immediately or return them.. Also u will bill them for any further correspondence from your brief as they are not working within the law. They have to adhere to very strict guidelines and your case is very simple either you are suitable to be in possession or you are not- and they revoke giving you the option to appeal.
If you need any further help pm me and I will gladly give it to you..

Thanks. That is pretty much what I am thinking. Everything has been done in writing as I insisted on that. My solicitor suggested a meeting but she is about 60 miles away, so I said that's fine, so long as the police pay your expenses and we meet on neutral territory. I am not having people who have treated me like this in my house. I engaged a surveyor on another matter not so far away and it cost me £500 for his visit and another £500 for a report so I know what fees are charged! So there has been no meeting. I now have a solicitor closer to home so I'd agree to meet, with her as a witness, at a local police station. My grandfather was a chief inspector so I have been brought up to do everything correctly, also I remember my father saying, "We don't work for them, they work for us". Sometimes they forget that. He would have steam coming out of his ears after this lot. I am milder and more cautious -- and certainly don't go around threatening people, let alone shooting them.

 

[TikkaFan]

No sarcasm intended Let me google that for you

 

[dga3240]

Hello,

I promised to update you on the progress of the seizure of my guns back in late September 2015. Well, Northern Constabulary still have my guns but in the meantime, my certificates have expired and I've had to apply for a renewal. I am told my case is being "fast tracked" and will only take 100 days rather than the usual five months. So, as they've already had ten months to complete their investigations, it takes three months to print out and issue a couple of certificates....

As you may recall, I am a farmer, 76 years old, never been in trouble with the police, temperate habits, and have held an Open FAC for over 58 years. I'd suggest if it can happen to me, it can happen to you. I raised several complaints about the handling of my case and The Police Investigations and Reviews Commisioner has up held three out of four. The review is published on the PIRC web site so you can read it for yourself at http://pirc.scotland.gov.uk/investigations. Just click on reviews and search for PIRC/00258/16.

Briefly, my case is as follows. Back in September 2015, I noticed a neighbour doing building works so checked his planning application on-line. That revealed that he was using a fast track procedure for farmers and had, to my mind, made "incorrect" statements on his application. Leaving that aside, as he is not a farmer and his 24m x 12m barn did not seem justified by his two acres, I asked him about this -- and got abuse. To my shame, I replied in like measure. He is a city boy and his mantra is "It's my land and I'll do what I want on it". You can fill in the rest for yourself. Next thing, the police were at my door to seize my guns. I was asked to sign a "receipt" which the officer stated she would be taking away with her with the guns. That immediately rung alarm bells so I read the document carefully. It was a form stating that I was voluntarily surrendering my guns for destruction, so be warned! Of course, that was "all a mistake" (anyone remember Mandy Rice-Davies?) so I amended the form to say that I expected my guns to be returned.

To fast forward, my solicitor wrote an excellent email to Inverness firearms department on the 16th October 2015 on my behalf stating official police guidelines and asking specific questions. That seems to have caused some embarassment as in spite of an acknowledgement and several reminders it was never answered. I've also asked if the supervising officer knows my neighbour personally, twice in writing and twice in print. Again, no reply. By this time, I began to recognise a familiar smell and told senior officers that I'd prefer all communications to be in writing so I would have a record. That was agreed but never completely adhered to. I wear two deaf aids and am not comfortable on the telephone but it was sometime later that I found the Equality Act 2010 which requires the authorities to make provision for such disabilities. Thereafter I was able to insist on all communications being in writing -- though the police continued to phone me until I finally blocked their number!

As I could see my costs spiralling out of control, I decided to handle matters myself. My solicitor advised me to have a criminal lawyer present if I agreed to the face-to-face meeting, not because I had done anything wrong but because I might inadvertently incriminate myself. I estimated it would cost me a minimum of £500 for a one hour meeting. You might like to read this web page: http://thejusticegap.com/2011/12/chat-or-interview/ which confirmed my suspicions. It seems to be police tactics to delay matters and cause as much frustration and annoyance as possible so you go down the lawyer route. I did re-join BASC but frankly found them unwilling to tackle the police over the obvious "irregularities". I think they'd be excellent for explaining things in terms the police can understand as someone clearly needs to do it! I finally compromised and had Dr Paul Monoghan MP sit in at a meeting with me. I can't say he grilled thge police on their bhaviour, but then I don't know what was said behind closed doors.

I don't shoot for sport and not having my guns has caused me financial loss. My land looks like The Somme with no rabbit control for over a year but thankfully myxy has solved that problem. From other cases I have been told about, there are suspicions that the police will seize weapons without proof of misdeeds but acting purely on suspicions or reports from vested interests and then go on a fishing expedition to try and find evidence of wrong doing. So it is very easy for someone to make a malicious complaint, especialy if he has an obliging witness. That seems to be blatently contrary to EU and UK law and I seem to recall something about "due process" in court before a man's property can be seized. Innocent until proven guilty? Can it really be right for the police to take away a man's tools of trade (because that is what guns are to a gamekeeper or farmer) in the slender hope that they can dig up some breach of the law? And it appears that no threat to public safety need be involved, only some vague suspicion that you might have done something wrong?

Policing in the UK is by the consent of the people. I have a senior police officer in the family. But will I be trusting the police in the future? What do you think?

 

[Pedro]

dga3240 - It's really hard to make any meaningful comment on this situation. Undoubtedly the police have been at some fault in this matter in a number of respects, but what caused them to be concerned about your possession of firearms is something that is pretty well glossed over, in that you don't discuss it fully on here (fair enough) and it isn't the PIRC's responsibility to do that, as they just address your complaints about the police, so that isn't made clear in their report.


Insofar as the police complaints have been dealt with, then all I can say is that they have been dealt with, possibly some to your satisfaction, some not. But I'm not really sure that your requests to have the people who expressed concerns about you identified to you by the police is reasonable. If people think someone is dangerous and tell the police, they have a reasonable expectation of discretion from the police. Or genuine concerns just will not be reported. Anyway, you know who they are!


I'm not sure what you hope to achieve with this thread. All it's highlighted to me is that Police Scotland have made some procedural mistakes that won't affect the eventual outcome, that if they have concerns for someone's possession of firearms they will seize them and that they are taking some time to decide what's to be done with your firearms/certificates. One thing did occur to me though. As you say your certificates are now up for renewal, is it that perhaps the police have intentionally given this matter some time to see whether there are more complaints of your behaviour or that in the meantime between the original incident(s) and renewal time, you have reinforced your view that you are a reasonable and responsible person that can possess firearms.

 

[goathunter1]

Bert/Ernie mention David McKie in Glasgow. He is a top man who specialises in this sort of thing and I strongly recommend that you go to someone who is an expert in the field. I know three lads who were in tricky situations and he got all of them sorted pronto. I imagine there are many others. He costs a few quid but it seems that you are spending money for little return.

 

[JTO]

As long as it looks like you will be getting your guns and certificates back, it might be best not to 'rock the boat'. Things that seem impossible can be overturned if it gets before a court.
Someone local down here had his guns and certificates returned after some months of legal process. He had been granted a shotgun certificate, then a Firearm certificate, done DSC1 and DSC2 and had an open certificate. After having guns for nearly 9 years the armed police turned up and confiscated the lot because they decided he was banned from having guns because of a 3-year prison sentence nearly 50 years before. BASC would not help with funding, but put him onto a lawyer. The judge decided that, at nearly 80, he would not be a danger to the public if he was allowed to have his guns back. The police had obviously been at fault in not checking his record, and did not dig their heels in.

 

[dga3240]

I think I did explain above that I'd had words with my neighbour over a planning matter. I am a retired surveyor and believe my interpretation of the law is correct which is why I reported it. I believe his report to the police was malicious and to divert attention.

As regards the return of my guns, I wrote in my previous post... "I did re-join BASC but frankly found them unwilling to tackle the police over the obvious "irregularities". I think they'd be excellent for explaining things in terms the police can understand as someone clearly needs to do it! I finally compromised and had Dr Paul Monoghan MP sit in at a meeting with me. I can't say he grilled the police on their behaviour, but then I don't know what was said behind closed doors". What I failed to add was that at the meeting it was agreed that my guns would be returned but as my certificates had expired, I was told I'd need to apply for a renewal. If that is refused, which seems unlikely considering the promises made in the presence of my Member of Parliament. I shall simpy start again.

I have had a long an interesting life but am increasingly alarmed at the growing infringement of our liberties by those in positions of power. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance and when I last looked we still had the freedom to hold an opinion and the right to express it. Maybe it is those who remain silent and don't complain who are at fault?

 

[Hornet 6]

when I last looked we still had the freedom to hold an opinion and the right to express it.

Only if your opinion is Politically Correct.

Neil.

 

[goathunter1]

Get a hold of David McKie and get it sorted. By all means rock the boat. Hard.

 

[patrickt]

Get a hold of David McKie and get it sorted. By all means rock the boat. Hard.

He does not need to incur more costs, as the Police have agreed to return his weapons, the only thing preventing this is his ticket/s have expired.

If the Police had made a decision not to return his weapons they would have/should have handed him the normal sec 12 letter, but as I read it they have not, and by confirming that the Police are returning his weapons is confirmation that this person is NOT A DANGER TO THE PUBLIC OR TO THE PEACE, and thereby a suitable person to possess fireams.

I would suggest letting the Police proceed with what they have promised, and hopefully this will end in a happy resolution

Good Luck
Patrick

 

[JTO]

I would suggest letting the Police proceed with what they have promised, and hopefully this will end in a happy resolution

Good Luck
Patrick

+1