Are Lapua having a laugh?
- Thread starter Bowland blades
- Start date
Quite right! and now they are going on strike for more money, guess they forgot about the furlough, where the Gov paid out without question.
As a range officer for several years, I have witnessed some of the worst shooting by so called experts some of which are on here, good brass is obviously wasted on them..
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
The rhetorical question is always;-
"Why shop at Fulton's?"
They are (with one noticeable exception) a surly bunch at best.
I have shopped in there. I have seldom enjoyed the experience and never once have I left that 'Time Machine' and thought, "Well now, that was a bargain".
I find it helps to dash home, have a shower and burn the clothes I was wearing when I went in...
tim@tcs
Well-Known Member
That must have been one of their good days, mind you being in the trade it’s a surprise that even the stumpy ex Greenjacket smiles anymore
The strange requests they must get over the years would fill a book
They are also tremendously busy trying to satisfy their regular trade worth lots of money rather than wasting time dealing with daft questions from well meaning visitors and instant experts who’ve never shot further than 25 yards
ChesterP
Well-Known Member
I buy the brass that costs the least measured over its lifetime and which has the best quality control. 223 PPU lasts about 4 or 5 reloads max before I get primer pocket issues whereas Lapua lasts me at least 10 reloads, ditto Sako. Taking whole life costs (ie cost per reload into account) the current Lapua works out about the same cost per reload as PPU at around 8p per reload. I'll stick with that for now as it needs less work to uniform things like flash holes (PPU can have more burrs) and the brass is better. However another 14% hike puts PPU in the lead as 14% on £78 is a lot more than 14% on £38!
Because they are sponsored, not paying for it and using it once
I wouldn't purposefully reload Hornady brass in anything out of choice.
Fine for one round firing of factory but the pockets will be slacker than a wizards sleeve in no time and won't hold up to competition loads
More likely because most PRS matches are "lost brass" matches. Its quite the annoyance to see that one shooter, chasing down his last piece of brass after a stage because it's a Lapua case, for which they get crap for it, since they slow down the matches. RO's these days will quickly and bluntly tell them to get off the firing point and come back later for their brass, after the match is complete.
As such, most (myself included) shoot Hornday cases (for 6.5 CM) in comps, so as to not feel the keen loss of expensive cases at these matches. And Hornday cases have never stopped someone from winning a match.
Interestingly enough, I have some Hornady cases on their 12th firing. Granted, I've had to cull a few, but only a handful. And this is with a 130gr load pushing 2950fps. And with bulk Hornady cases to boot (no lot #, just 500 cases per plastic bag). I think people make a much ado about Hornady cases compared to Lapua, to help justify the cost. More times than not, a match is lost due to the shooter, not what brand case they are shooting.
While Hornday cases are not on the same uniformity level as Lapua or Nosler/Norma, they are sufficiently made well enough for hitting small targets at long range.
JME...
Scotty99
Well-Known Member
I think they are switching over a lot of their production to fulfil their ever expanding military contracts (Putin’s fault) so no doubt are putting up the price their commercial outlet products to the same level. I’ve heard that they are dropping several calibres from production going forward and will only be producing high market demand products.
Powder, primers and bullets will be in short supply to about 2028 with the attended price increases during this time.
Time to stock up and reload chaps.
Powder, primers and bullets will be in short supply to about 2028 with the attended price increases during this time.
Time to stock up and reload chaps.
I am not taking anyone serious about 1 times fired brass , i have seen loading something over 20 years for hunting and comp. Used a hell of a lot of different brass . Lapua and RWS have been the best punching paper a long way out and of course in most one shot at a time comps brass recovery is easy .
Very different out on the hill rooting in the heather and such for your cases , lamping etc .
Have started using some PPU in the deer rifle for practice and its performed well tbf . its now my choice in hornet ( though its capacity is down ) it does what i need and its no big deal to loose in cover or after dark .
Reloading frequency ? Well i do not anneal and with minium sizing work i dont think i have ever used a brass that couldnt make ten accurate re-loads . One for Hornady is laughable and a crazy comment to make . Brass is pretty much brass other than thickness and tollerance and annealing quality is imo the main factor in Lapua performace , Yet folks often anneal now !
If i was still punching paper and steel i would still buy Lapua . Out culling though ? Nah! no real tangible difference other than cost
PhilRS03
Active Member
There are a LOT of reasons why that’s the case. A lot of OEM’s, especially American ones, typically arnet very well geared for exports. Especially into countries like the UK where there are a few complex processes to get right. With the greatest of respect to people in the Gun trade, I would say 95% of gun shops wouldn’t have the first idea how to import guns/ammunition into the UK. Even Defence companies have a hard time interpreting the absolutely bonkers section 1/5 firearms acts rules and how they relate to import licenses. Add to the fact there is ZERO support from the Government in terms of Import/Export firearms licensing with the exception of one, yes you read correctly, one dude from the home office, it doesn’t make for easy business.
Add to that time is money, an already likely confused OEM in the states simply wouldn’t be able to deal with hundreds of UK businesses bombarding them on a daily basis with IMPEX related questions they don’t have the answers too.
Add to that cash flow- to make it worthwhile shipping anything you need volume. There’s no way individual dealers will ammass anything like the quantities of guns/ammo to make it viable to import them. Especially as their core business isn’t distributing, it’s retail.
Finally, What we would class as big importers/distributors here in the UK, probably shift about 5% annually of what a shop like cabelas does in one month in the states. So more often than not, it’s barely even worth the time of OEM’s to dedicate to one distributor here, let alone potentially hundreds!
However do we need hundreds of uk businesses importing? would not two at least give competition in the market rather than just one? Appears that vertical selling is a gift to manufactures and the sole distributor to control prices how is that in the interests of the consumer?
PhilRS03
Active Member
I’m all for it, honestly, but practically it would never work. Not in a month of Sundays. Like I say it’s not a simple process and there’s a reason why they’re arnet even that many distributors around in the UK. You also have the relationship management piece, think “would a Porsche dealership be selling Aston Martins”? OEMS want to feel looked after by a distributor. Business in the industry is very fickle and almost entirely based on personal relationships.
Also in terms of pricing, races to the bottom never help anyone, including the customer. In the politest way possible, I’d maybe have a look into the complications before you make assumptions that exclusive distributors are pulling consumers pants down. Just maintaining a relationship with an American OEM costs thousands of pounds a year (for those that do it properly). Lastly, if you think there’s tonnes of money in importing/selling guns and ammo, you are very… very wrong! It’s not the kind of business you’re funding a private yacht from that’s for sure. The margins arnet there. Even in the defence area for most UK based distributors, the contract values may be big, but the cost of doing business is stratospheric.
Very true.
Not so sure about your lastly statement, of course their is money in it otherwise their would not be so many player in it and they would not bother to import into the U.K., nick name treasure island, go on companies house and look at the accounts of the u.k. cartridge manufactures or the big importers they make money.
go on the likes of graft and sons and compare usa prices to U.K. prices, the cost of crossing the Atlantic does not justify the difference in pricing. Some like Ramshot powder is made in Belgium, must be cheaper to cross the channel than the atlantic even allowing for difference in demand as dangerous codes are limited on quantity per consignment.
Smokeless Powder - Powders & Primers - Graf & Sons
www.grafs.com
$29.69 = £25.08. Henry Krank £49.50
PhilRS03
Active Member
No offence intended but it’s totally ludicrous to do such a simple comparison. You don’t have any idea the amount of background activities there are to consider when it comes to doing business in this area. If you work off of 30% total margin for a UK retailer/distributor (less in the defence sector), you get a better idea of the landed cost of those goods. Based off that example above, I’d be amazed if Kranks landed cost for that powder is under £34. You’ve just stuck a price up there with no idea about MOQ’s from the OEM, international pricing models, cost of shipping at the time of import etc. Also bear in mind a lot of US companies outsource the legal aspect of their export procedures to Independent ITAR brokers, as they usually don’t have the ability to do it in house. At some points over the last 2 years shipping ANYTHING from the US commercially was around £1400. The physical cost of crossing the Atlantic is only about 30% of the associated costs when importing goods.Not so sure about your lastly statement, of course their is money in it otherwise their would not be so many player in it and they would not bother to import into the U.K., nick name treasure island, go on companies house and look at the accounts of the u.k. cartridge manufactures or the big importers they make money.
go on the likes of graft and sons and compare usa prices to U.K. prices, the cost of crossing the Atlantic does not justify the difference in pricing. Some like Ramshot powder is made in Belgium, must be cheaper to cross the channel than the atlantic even allowing for difference in demand as dangerous codes are limited on quantity per consignment.
Smokeless Powder - Powders & Primers - Graf & Sons
$29.69 = £25.08. Henry Krank £49.50
I feel like I’m probably not articulating myself properly for you to understand, but honestly you couldn’t be more wide of the mark if you tried with these comments. No offence intended at all.
no offence taken or hopefully none given. The £1400 is irrelevant as ramshot powder being sold in the u.k. will not originate in the USA but from the Belgium manufacture.
your 30% distributor margins i fear are too little, I remember when a certain brand selling .22lr direct from its u.k. owned business to gun shops sold retail for £55.00 per 1000 the brand then gave sole rights to one of the large u.k. distributors and suddenly the gun shops had to sell it for £110.00 or more.
Be amazed regarding the £34 however do also consider Kranks are the sole u.k. importer and distributor for Ramshot and look to keep prices as low and competitive as possible as reloading is probably a significant part of their business model. Ramshot being probably one of the cheapest if not the cheapest powders available.
The UK retail price vs ex works price is a very large gap indeed of certain products, I do accept the market size is very different in the USA, EU to that of the U.K.
The shooting industry in the U.K. is a challenging industry to operate in and never more so since Russia invaded Ukraine.
your 30% distributor margins i fear are too little, I remember when a certain brand selling .22lr direct from its u.k. owned business to gun shops sold retail for £55.00 per 1000 the brand then gave sole rights to one of the large u.k. distributors and suddenly the gun shops had to sell it for £110.00 or more.
Be amazed regarding the £34 however do also consider Kranks are the sole u.k. importer and distributor for Ramshot and look to keep prices as low and competitive as possible as reloading is probably a significant part of their business model. Ramshot being probably one of the cheapest if not the cheapest powders available.
The UK retail price vs ex works price is a very large gap indeed of certain products, I do accept the market size is very different in the USA, EU to that of the U.K.
The shooting industry in the U.K. is a challenging industry to operate in and never more so since Russia invaded Ukraine.
PhilRS03
Active Member
Very true, but there is a minefield to contend with in terms of shipping/compliance/import now we are rid of the fourth Reich.
I mean I’m not sure of the ins and outs of that, and I know there are one or two (on my side of the industry) that massively try and profiteer, but generally speaking there is usually a reason for a drastic price hike. Like I say, no idea what that was or the prices involved but I’d suspect that the “brand steal” involved dangling a rather large financial carrot under the nose of the OEM, and in order to recoup that investment prices may have had to rise. Factor in exchange rates and all that jazz as well. The dollar was almost equal to the pound last year and the year prior, and depending on how the distributor purchases stuff (they may or may not have a dollar account with dollars purchased at a higher/lower rate to use), that will also effect the price. They may have even had to get a loan to pay for a massive shipment, so the margin would have to cover interest charges from the bank etc. There is a lot more to it than meets the eye.
The reason for the added costs when it comes to the Ukraine piece is (in my recent experience) is due to companies having to make sizeable infrastructure and manning investments to support the increase in demand. I know of one brass company who have dumped over $2M dollars into standing up a whole new production line, so clearly the cost of goods will reflect that. There are also some companies in the states that don’t sell direct to even UK Distributors, they leave that task to a trusted/capable distributor stateside who are better at dealing with exports. It all adds up.
But I’m on the same page as you, there are some companies that profiteer, however I think from my experience they are in the minority in the industry in the UK..
tim@tcs
Well-Known Member
Sadly many prices are fixed by the manufacturer (my wife imports stuff from the USA) and come with a minimum price
Part is they don’t want to undersell forcing retailers out of business and businesses need profits to pay wages, shareholders, sponsorship and advertising before we even get started on R&D!
If you’re not a big business you won’t satisfy everyone and you can usually only grow by investment which requires returns to keep them on board!
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
I was on a powder stand at IWA yesterday and overheard two insiders talking together, the gist of which was that the Ukraine wars powder usage per day is higher than all the EUs police/military training/target and hunting usage for a whole year. Which will go to explain the shortages as the makers can only make so much per powder week with their present tooling. If they invest to up their capacity as they did in WW2 then they were left holding the baby when the conflict ended.
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