Baikal IZH 18-MN - Am I convincing myself to buy a bad rifle?

[jthyttin]

I managed to zero at 50 yards but used all the available windage to do so, on moving out to 100 yards the rifle shot 2 feet to the right

Sorry but this is not possible. If the scope is sitting on top of the rifle and the rifle is zeroed at 50y the only difference at 100y is elevation (rather, the change in windage is so small that you cannot measure it).

For me biggest problem with Baikal singleshots is their ergonomics, which are not particularly suitable for accuracy and consistency.

 

[LeftHandGuy]

For me biggest problem with Baikal singleshots is their ergonomics, which are not particularly suitable for accuracy and consistency.

Hmmn, yes, and I notice that Brithunter and this guy certainly altered the ergonomics of the stock to suit their needs...

As to the alignment of the scope grooves, I couldn't possibly comment, but it would be interested to know whether people think it worth fitting a Weaver style adaptor, or just going for really narrow rings....

Saying that of course, mereside/Wayne's suggestion, essentially working the bolt (of an R/H action) on my left shoulder with my right hand is certainly worth trying - maybe a L/H action is a bit of an unnecessary luxury... As I said in my introductory post I am VERY new to all of this!

 

[Sharpie]

working the bolt (of an R/H action) on my left shoulder with my right hand is certainly worth trying - maybe a L/H action is a bit of an unnecessary luxury...

I am LH left eye dominant, have been shooting RH bolt actions for donkeys years, it is no problem at all, TBH I'd find a LH action confusing.

Don't be concerned about "losing the sight picture" whilst working the bolt, most of us don't see the shot strike through the sight anyway due to recoil, but keep both eyes open and see if the deer runs through the un-sighted eye. Mount the rifle correctly, fit the 'scope with correct eye relief, and you will be back on aim in a fraction of a second.

I've shot two muntjac within perhaps five seconds using a RH Sako estate rifle, first time I used it, no problem. Cycle the bolt with left hand, just reach across, either over the 'scope, or around the back (my way).

And if shooting off a bipod etc. RH action is preferable for us cack-handers.

I do own a lever-action Marlin, which is the perfect rifle for either hand use, and much under-rated for woodland stalking IMHO.

PS: that Baikal is a horrid nasty thing, and has to be dismounted to reload anyway, so has no advantage. Now if you were looking at a good falling-block e.g. Ruger #1 that would be different.

 

[jthyttin]

As to the alignment of the scope grooves, I couldn't possibly comment, but it would be interested to know whether people think it worth fitting a Weaver style adaptor, or just going for really narrow rings....

You could use specialty bases like the ones made by Kozap:

vyhledávání - KOZAP

Quality is OK and price should be affordable, if not in UK I'm sure you could find a dealer from mainland and mail order.

 

[LeftHandGuy]

Yes, if I had the money I'd be happy to try a Ruger No 1!

 

[LeftHandGuy]

Cheers jthyttin, looks interesting, although I'm thinking that, on the whole, I ought to be looking in another direction than the Baikal... Still, my mind is not made up yet!

 

[Hornet 6]

Sorry but this is not possible. If the scope is sitting on top of the rifle and the rifle is zeroed at 50y the only difference at 100y is elevation (rather, the change in windage is so small that you cannot measure it).

Then scope crossover is also a figment of peoples imagination, and it matters not at all if the dovetail lines up with the barrel, or if the scope sits above the barrel or off to one side ?

Neil.

 

[Brithunter]

I simply remodelled the wood on mine as it simply looked wrong to me and it felt wrong. The wood was almost pure white "Artic Birch" I think they call it. I only sold the rifle to make a slot open to acquire the BSA regent in .222 Remington other wise I would have kept it.

​The rings I used were a a pair of steel Hilver rim fire ones in 1". Later I fitted a smaller scope more in keeping with the rifles trim lines.

 

[Brithunter]

Kevin you really are one of those persons for whom the glass is always half empty. Try putting a positive spin on things there's always someone worst off than yourself even when things are going a bit rough. My comment was made half in jest and half as a prompt that there are several makers that manufacture left handed rifles. It also doesn't do any harm to slip in a reminder about the H4H prize draw at ever opportunity either. So cheer up mate and live in hope things can only get better.

That is where your so wrong. I could point out a lot of things I am positive about.

Yes I am feeling low just now but dealing with crooks and wide boys does do that I find. Currently waiting on VOSA to get in touch and find out if they are going to inspect a car that should never have passed an MOT yet did and what they are going to do about it. My concern is to small items I have noticed that should have failed it one what of the important things did the skim over and miss?

Dealing with incompetent people is frustrating to say the least. Dealing with liars and cheats is draining especially over a lengthy time.

 

[jthyttin]

Then scope crossover is also a figment of peoples imagination, and it matters not at all if the dovetail lines up with the barrel, or if the scope sits above the barrel or off to one side ?

Neil.

Like I said, "If the scope is sitting on top of the rifle". I haven't stumbled upon term "scope crossover" before, but found this explanation:

Is this a symptom of ? - www.ShootForum.com

"Its when the scope centre is not aligned (left to right) directly above the bore centre."

I'll reiterate: if the scope is sitting on top of the rifle, that is, when you're taking the shot(s) the scope's longitudinal axis is vertically on top of the bore's longitudinal axis, the horizontal POI will not differ depending on distance (in reality it will drift depending on some minor ballistics which are generally proportional to time of flight, like spin drift which means right hand twist will cause the POI to drift right, but this is so miniscule at 100y that you cannot measure it).

If the dovetail is not in line (parallel) to the bore, you're using scope adjustments to bring the scope's real (internal) longitudinal axis parallel to the bore. If you can get the POA and POI to horizontally coincide at some zeroing distance, you've accomplished this. Other possibility is you run out of adjustment. Some scope rings have horizontal/windage adjustment just for this purpose (there was also scopes that had only vertical/elevation adjustment).

If the dovetail is in line but to the right or left of the bore line (when rifle is vertical and pointing downrange) the "scope crossover" will occur. Also if scope rings are not designed and/or machined properly, or if you're using rings which are designed for different dovetail width, the scope would not sit on top of the bore when rifle is vertical and pointing downrange. At this point the equation is simple geometry; if you're zeroed at 50y and shooting for 100y, the horizontal difference in POI will be the same as the difference in dovetail/bore position. A millimeter or two is actually quite big a difference and you'd be hard pressed to be able to measure a 5mm difference in POI.

You can eliminate the "scope crossover" by canting the rifle so that the dovetail (and scope) is brought directly on top of the bore, and then canting the scope so that it's level. But I wouldn't bother since the gains are minimal or non-existent.

So given you had POI differ 2 feet, I'd be inclined to search the cause from somewhere else. Like in the article I referred to, I only browsed through first page but on the post #9 the OP was already right on the money concerning the "scope crossover".

 

[redcoat]

My only experience with a Baikal single shot is a chap who stalked at my place who brought a .308 cal example.
It cost him £100 unmoderated with a cheap 6x scope he bought off ebay, the reason?, it was all he could afford! I had to reassure him I did NOT regard him as a second class citizen because he did not own a Sako or whatever.

When on my range he grouped an inch at 100 yards (and he was self concious and nervous) I had to have a go! Yes the trigger needed work, it felt wooden with a rough pull,
BUT even I then proceed to put three shots into an inch.

My thoughts? It is a light gun, so a bit "barky" in .308, the hammer forged barrel was lovely, the guy had spent a lot of time on the woodwork shaping and staining to personalise it,
I liked the cross bolt safety on the trigger guard, quick and convenient, the scope rails were very short with narrow rings to suit, I would prefer a weaver rail set up,
but this guy used what he could afford at the time. As a keepers truck gun, a "survival" tool or for those on a real budget, I would recommend them, I really liked it, but thats just me!

My Sako AV action .270 stutzen weighing 9lbs or so, felt huge and heavy compared to the Baikal and the difference in quality of trigger and finish etc is obvious, however,
this guy had saved to get £150 together, he had a young family and a fairly hostile wife! to deal with, the Baikal did the job and did it well.

He was stalking on a budget so all he wanted was a cull buck for meat. We went out that eve and at last light after, predictably, finding Does all over the shop we found two small four pointers busy removing the last of their velvet in one of my Guvn'rs Ash plantations, shooting of a convenient tree stump he carefully necked the beast, which dropped instantly.
He was happy (probably the slowest and most careful gralloch I have ever seen! No waste for this boy). I was happy, what is not to like?

​Regards Redcoat

 

[LeftHandGuy]

My only experience with a Baikal single shot is a chap who stalked at my place who brought a .308 cal example. It cost him £100 unmoderated with a cheap 6x scope he bought off ebay, the reason?, it was all he could afford!

Redcoat, this story is not very far from the thinking which has found me looking at them in the first place.... It still mght come down to how much money I have available at the point where I can apply for the variation on my certificate (assuming the police approve it that is).

 

[ezzy6.5]

Speaking as a left hander. I have owned lots of right hand bolt action rifles, from a prone/Bench (Or any position where the front end is supported) I could esily work the bolt lightening fast as i'd use my right hand while keeping my left hand on the pistol grip. I eventually bought a Ruger No1 in .270 for a couple of hundred quid and had the trigger done. It was a really nice rifle but because the reciever wall was higher on the left side to acommadate the extractor and I had a big (ish) scope on the rifle, I found it a bit awkward to load when shooting prone (not impossible but annoying). I sold the No1 to buy a left handed Tikka 690 in 6.5 (that rifle cost less than £200 sh).
I'm sure you will shoot deer with a Baikal but there is a few things to be aware of. You can't fit a bipod, if you want to put a mod on it the balance will be horrible, when shooting prone you will have to roll on your side or stand up to reload, you might end up spending money to get the trigger sorted, in a large centerfire calibre it's gonna kick, even using a right handed bolt will be quicker than a single shot.
For what it's worth, my advice would be,
Buy (or get a mate to take you out with his) a right handed .22lr and practice shooting off sticks/bipod using your right hand to work the bolt in the end you will be faster than a righty.
have a look locally for a cheap LH bolt action rifle in any calibre large enough and don't let anyone tell you it's a poor calibre because they will all do the job well.
If you can't find a lefty, look for a cheap Right hand bolt with a nice simple stock (not too heavy though)
Don't buy a new l/h rifle as it will hemmorage money faster than a Rover!
The Tikka's are out there and really good rifles. I only sold mine to fund another new rifle.

Good luck, Ezzy

 

[Selous]

Nothing wrong with that at all but perhaps the words of John Ruskin may be considered

if you pay too much for something then you may lose a little money, that is all, but if you pay too little then you may lose everything because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

Now I'm not saying that the Baikal will not shoot or kill deer as clearly it will. I think you should carefully consider what you want to do now and what you may want to do in the future, if a very light single shot 308 fits the bill then that's fine. Otherwise I maintain that you would probably be better suited with a bolt gun

 

[redcoat]

I think all the above replies are good sound advice In my experience of buying rifles, that in hindsight were mistakes, the old saying of "Try before you buy" is the best advice I can give.
I once bought a Winchester 94 30-30 without trying it, the result? The most horrible trigger I have ever used, I loved the concept and the caliber but when push came to shove
and financially I HAD to sell a rifle to raise funds I sold the 94 and kept my CZ 601 in .243 and the Sako AV .270.
I would strongly urge you to try a bolt action older BSA or Tikka or CZ or gunmakers of that ilk, for fit and trigger pulls and recoil, it is so difficult to get the rifle in the first place, get it right!
Ask any members living close to you, or if on your travels you visit Gloucestershire, pop in and see me and try out a few different rifles ( I have my own small range at home).
It would be better to buy a lightly used older rifle in an unfashionable caliber (.270 springs to mind!) than waste money on a new poor quality item like the remmie 700 synthetic.
Remmington, allegedly, spend £20 dollars for the barrel, you get what you pay for.

When buying my Sako, a 1980's era model I must have tried for fit and function at least fifty different rifles in various gunshops, I tried every brand they had in all sorts of calibers in the .270 to 30-06 range and it was worth it. For example I narrowed it down to an immaculate BSA in 30-06 (unmoderated) and a Sako stutzen, I was able to test fire both, the Sako was the better gun for me although £200 more (gulp) it cost me £400 with an old Swaro scope on it. The point is it will see me out in my shooting life, I loved the BSA, the bore was first class, woodwork was cared for, it just did not quite fit me, so had a much greater perceived recoil than other 30-06's I had tried.

Regards Redcoat

 

[LeftHandGuy]

Lots of wisdom to consider. A quick browse of guntrader shows that there are scoped rifles in my price range if I am willing to contend with a R/H bolt action. Some of them even threaded too, which would definately be a plus. I'm going to have to at least give it a try before dismissing it!

 

[Odinsravens]

Have had a couple in 222 rem - shot very accurately indeed - really want one in 7.62x54r !

 

[LeftHandGuy]

Have had a couple in 222 rem - shot very accurately indeed - really want one in 7.62x54r !

Wow, this is my oldest Zombie thread. And if I could find one in 7.62x54r I would have it like a shot.... @alberta boy fed me rumors of one once, but he may have been simply toying with me as I have yet to see one in the US or UK... The 12bore shotgun versions go for peanuts in the UK now BTW, but are not exportable due to naughty Russian imperialism.....

 

[Heym SR20]

Wow, this is my oldest Zombie thread. And if I could find one in 7.62x54r I would have it like a shot.... @alberta boy fed me rumors of one once, but he may have been simply toying with me as I have yet to see one in the US or UK... The 12bore shotgun versions go for peanuts in the UK now BTW, but are not exportable due to naughty Russian imperialism.....

In the meantime over the last 11 years @edinburghrifles has built quite a nice collection of Baikal rifles and they shoot and work well. No deer wants to be in front of one.

No they don’t have nice triggers nor are nicely finished and do feel a bit like scaffold poles. But his whole collection probably cost less than half what you pay for a decent 2nd hand T3x.

But open the action, pop in a cartridge, line up the open sights, squeeze the whole rifle (as you should with heavy draggy triggers and lightish rifles) and the deer is in the pot. Just the thing for somebody who needs a tool to do the job.

 

[LeftHandGuy]

In the meantime over the last 11 years @edinburghrifles has built quite a nice collection of Baikal rifles and they shoot and work well. No deer wants to be in front of one.

No they don’t have nice triggers nor are nicely finished and do feel a bit like scaffold poles. But his whole collection probably cost less than half what you pay for a decent 2nd hand T3x.

But open the action, pop in a cartridge, line up the open sights, squeeze the whole rifle (as you should with heavy draggy triggers and lightish rifles) and the deer is in the pot. Just the thing for somebody who needs a tool to do the job.

Seriously, I have an irrational attraction to "budget" single shot rifles. I am scratching that itch, more or less, with a Savage 219 in 30-30. One of these IZH18s in 7.62x54r would be perfect though as it's a round I already have some experience with and a decent stock of brass and bullets for.