Barrels below minimum wall thickness

Reason why sleeving is / was looked down on:

It removes originality, but then so does restocking, refinishing etc.

There is sleeving and sleeving. Some is indistinguishable from the original barrels, others indistinguishable from Steel pipe plumbing to a cattle trough done by a disgruntled student.

Chances are if the gun needs sleeving everything else is pretty worn so top lever comes over centre, gun is off the face etc etc. Sleeving may well bring the gun back in proof but its still worn out.

And there is probably an element of snobbery- you cant afford a new gun?

But modern day sleeving techniques with appropriate rejointing can give an old gun a new lease of life for much less of cost than having a completely rebuilt gun with new barrels.

Or if you think that a new AyA sidelock won’t give you much change out of £10k, and the No1 £20k, having an older gun resleeved makes good sense, if its a gun you want to keep and use.
 
brock and norris said:
with respect sir the barrels are worn out !!!! the only recourse is to sleeve .or have new barrels . The gent does not want to do that . They are out of proof and should not under any circumstances be fired . I know the gent bought these barrels at auction and the wall thickness was given by the auction house at the time of sale .so if he does not want to sleeve they are a tomato stake
Click to expand...

How can you say they are out of proof if you don’t know the proof measurements of that barrel in comparison to the current bore diameter all we have is a wall thickness I highly suspect they are still in proof if the auction house sold them as such, they may be only just in proof.

Now onto wall thickness they are thin for a standard gun but some makers made thin but very strong barrels. He will need to get this checked bore diameters as well as wall thickness.
 
In 1975 my grandfather paid £500 for new barrels to be put on his (long dead) grandfathers 1884 McCririck sxs, boxlock, shotgun. Then he gave me this for my 14th birthday. Since then it has now been shooting regularly for with only one minor lockwork repair two years ago costing £150. The gun is as tight as the day the barrels were made. Just run in really. Having 1/4 and improved chokes, I see no reason why these 'new' barrels cannot shoot steel shot if required. The gun should be fine for another 100 years or so. This is a fine handling and very reliable gun compared to the heavy o/u guns I see selling for £2,000 or more. My conclusion: Quality gunsmithing of lock and stock is very well worth preserving by adding new barrels.
 
I have the same gun no2 of a pair rebarreled in 1964 by cogswell gun was made in 1913
 
They are 20 thou at the muzzle end, likely 4-5" away
The peak pressure is at the muzzle

The wall thickness is a guideline not a proof requirement, hence the reason they could sell them at all.

If they pass proof they pass proof
Bore diameter in relation to diameter at proof is more relevant to the sale of shotguns.
Visual inspection of bulges, rivelling, dents, pitting etc will give you an idea of condition

I would be perfectly happy to put some 28gr #6 cartridges through those as they have probably only lost 10 thou in 100 yrs!

If someone is doing a sleeve job for a few hundred quid they are either crap or I need their details.
We had Diggory Haddoke sleeve a MacNaughton for a customer and the join is imperceptible. Amazing work.
The use of TIG welding vs soldering barrels on as was done in the past is a massive step forward.

but given the prices these guns are selling for now that every member organisation has poisoned the market with non lead mis-information, you are unlikely to see the value of dropping £3-4k on guns not worth that
 
This is a very old thread, and I have learned a lot in the intervening years.

Key dimension on the barrels is the original proof dimensions. These are marked on the barrel. Barrels do vary from maker to maker and they do use different bore sizes. Depending on vintage, place of proof etc the actual description may be different

Dig Hadeoke gives a good summary bore size proof marks

Many european guns stamp on the weight of the barrels.

So I asked Holts for a condition report on a gun in the Sealed bid sale. Looked an interesting gun to me. The condition report was very honest. I haven’t put the full details but here are the key parts

“
651+ .663+ 24 21

barrels externally with some fading to reblue (and inherent loss of definition to rib inscription), some light rust spotting and losses to finish at muzzles and where fore-end meets, partially repaired dent to right barrel, internally with some light marking and minor pits, fairly dull to ring, slight movement on action and slightly off face. Action with some scars and staining to face, some fairly heavy vice marks from action bar being squeezed to tighten, some loss of crispness to engraving, slight overbite mark to floorplate, safety and ejectors operate ok with snapcaps. Woodwork with average light surface knocks and bruises. stock possible replacement.
open
”

I don’t have sight of the proof marks, its a 16 bore, and given the bore dimensions probably proofed at 17bore (.649). It has been reproofed. The bores have definitely been cleaned up, the right barrel has been opened up by about 15 thou. The wall thicknesses are ok but marginal. Pitting in the barrel, cleaning them up would remove another 2 or 3 or perhaps 5 thou, which would take the walls down below min recommended 20 thou wall thickness. Movement in the action and general scarring. Eeegh.

This is a high mileage gun. If it had real sentimental value, or was a particularly fine maker, action and stock then it would be worth a punt and then spending the time and money on rebuilding it. But it’s a medium grade gun. And I already have a similar gun with decent wall thicknesses and a tight action that I have been using for the last couple of years fed on a diet of 24gram steel shot cartridges. It’s a good walking around gun, cost me a total of £600 by the time I had the stock bent and chokes opened up.
 
Edinburgh Rifles said:
They are 20 thou at the muzzle end, likely 4-5" away
The peak pressure is at the muzzle

The wall thickness is a guideline not a proof requirement, hence the reason they could sell them at all.

If they pass proof they pass proof
Bore diameter in relation to diameter at proof is more relevant to the sale of shotguns.
Visual inspection of bulges, rivelling, dents, pitting etc will give you an idea of condition

I would be perfectly happy to put some 28gr #6 cartridges through those as they have probably only lost 10 thou in 100 yrs!

If someone is doing a sleeve job for a few hundred quid they are either crap or I need their details.
We had Diggory Haddoke sleeve a MacNaughton for a customer and the join is imperceptible. Amazing work.
The use of TIG welding vs soldering barrels on as was done in the past is a massive step forward.

but given the prices these guns are selling for now that every member organisation has poisoned the market with non lead mis-information, you are unlikely to see the value of dropping £3-4k on guns not worth that
Click to expand...
Are you sure about that? I was always under the impression the pMax happened nearer the chamber end.
Always pleased to learn though.
 
Rafter said:
Are you sure about that? I was always under the impression the pMax happened nearer the chamber end.
Always pleased to learn though.
Click to expand...
So, with smokeless powders did I! Which is why blackpowder still for some time continued to be used to prove shotgun barrels at one part of the proof process as it delivered its pressure along the full length of the barrel. I think this was done a "view" so that the barrel maker could prove that the selected tube or tubes for the barrel was OK to continue investing time and money in before major work was then carried out. The finished work then being done and much later the whole now complete gun submitted for final proof.
 
Dig Hadeoke at Vintage Guns has just two very good little films on first bore measurements and then wall thicknesses

www.vintageguns.co.uk

How to Measure Bores

How to measure thebores of a shotgun barrel with a manual gauge.
www.vintageguns.co.uk www.vintageguns.co.uk



And



Birmingham Proof House also publish full details of the level of inspection that a gun will go through before and after proof firing and this things that should be checked prior to submission to the proof house . Note - most guns only ever get proofed once when they are new. Like all machines they wear with everyday use.

 
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