BASC and Mandatory Testing

[6pointer]

BASC WROTE wow more unfounded and unproven accusations against BASC, just as you started with eh with accusing us of pushing for compulsory testing, and now you claim that BASC is setting itself up in Scotland to make £100’000’s out of testing…your evidence please – not just theory and rhetoric but cold hard facts…
I think as a spokes person for BASC David you should be more specific with your reply then i might be able to answer.
But i will Answer one of your reply,s that was to say Mr Sheddon is not the head of the scottish Parliment i agree and never said he was i said he was one of the top men in SNH the scottish governemt,s direct advisors. But you can call me a liar on that.
Regarding the cash issue David i agree my figuer is well low not knowing the full facts on the amount of people to have sat lev1 or the number that might in the future.

So be specific and i will answer ps do you know how many have sat the lev 1 so we might get an idea of the cash to be made by BASC through this qualification.?

David you need to stick up for BASC they are your employer and the money they make reflects on the staffing levels of pay but that dose not make it right.

Again i will say an independent review of the DMQ system and its providers will need to take place at the highest level before any decision can take place by Scottish government.
yes that dose exclude BASC and BDS in the review.

 

[paul o']

no worrys

Paul O
Well chilled thanks and I did not take any offence what so ever at your post, thought you asked a perfectly good and legit question. Hope my answer was taken in the same context.

Afternoon Shabz,
Thanks for clarifying your point, I think for now you and I will have to agree to disagree about compulsory testing prior to grant of FAC.

Based on reviewing and managing almost 1000 shooting related insurance claims, I would not say these is a problem with firearms safety anywhere in the UK at this time.

The vast majority of accidents resulting from a shooting activity are relatively small property damage claims, shot telephone or power lines, the odd sheep , pig, cow or horse shot by mistake, even had one case of a chemical loo from a stalkers caravan tipped into the fresh water supply of a small village once…

Very few claims result in personal injury, and to be honest the average number of incidents has fallen slightly over the last 15 years.

Shooting related accidents are so low that compulsory testing or training at grantis unlikely to prevent them. LAmost all accidents are caused by expereinced shoters.

Six pointer, so its OK for the Government to set standards provided these standards don’t come from any suggestions made by BASC or BDS…

wow more unfounded and unproven accusations against BASC, just as you started with eh with accusing us of pushing for compulsory testing, and now you claim that BASC is setting itself up in Scotland to make £100’000’s out of testing…your evidence please – not just theory and rhetoric but cold hard facts…

To the best of my knowledge Colin Sheddon is not head of the Scottish Parliament so can’t make any final say over legislation in Scotland. And if SNH and or the Scottish Parliament will not listen to the organisations you choose to support, don’t blame BASC!

I wonder who your independent advisors will be, and how they can advise the Scottish Parliament, if as you say, the Government should make these decisions without any outside influence – tricky…

Best wishes
David

 

[gerarddwatts]

'Scottish Govt and their advisors well up to speed on deer and there(sp) management...' I'm glad you think so.
'do i need to rime a list....' not even English.
'cross reference them to ex employees of BASC...' irrelevant.
'BASC a one stop organisation....' don't understand your point, what is a one-stop organisation..explain please.
'lined there(sp) pockets with 100,000 of their hard earned cash...' nasty accusation...prove it.
'a standard is set buy(sp) and (sp) organisation....' who said BASC is setting any standard? Show me where.
'independant(sp) body should be set up....' what, and no shooter should have an input?
'Colin Sheddon of BASC should be able to make an independent decision for the Scottish Government through SNH...' what on earth has Colin Sheddeon got to do with SNH...I should think Colin would love to be able to influence the Scottish Government through SNH...if only!
'...BASC have the loudest voice...' I question that..I would suggest the SGA voice is as loud.
'...rivals are precluded from decision making.....' nothing to stop SACS, or indeed LACS from having as much input as anyone else.
'..standards set by a fully independent review...' what, and no input from shooters or their representatives. We've already got a Scottish Government minister wanting to restrict the number of firearms held...and you think these people are capable of a sensible 'review' without our organisation(s) looking after our interests?
I don't see how many more times BASC can say they are AGAINST mandatory testing without it sinking in?

I'm afraid your disjointed ramblings are coming across as nothing more than a personal vendetta against BASC.

 

[Shabz]

Gerard, how can you ask us to trust an organisation to fight against compulsory testing when that same organisation will gain from losing??

 

[gerarddwatts]

You cynic you!! Because I trust them to do as they say...and they keep saying it... until such time as they prove me wrong. They will....with others....continue to provide such voluntary training as is required(quite rightly) by their members. All of their submissions to the enquiries that follow disasters such as Durham/Cumbria have resisted mandatory training. If they wanted to promote their training regime as mandatory surely that was their opportunity?

In fact I left BASC for a number of years, but after I read their submission to the Cumbria enquiry, I was so impressed I rejoined. So now I'm in BASC, CA, BDS, and SGA. The geezer from GWCT who approaches me every year at Scone has got no chance!!

 

[eggy s]

The guest shot the professional. How is that the professionals fault?

I am assuming as he got shot in the arse he let his client crawl behind him with a loaded rifle...

He is the professional for a reason. If anyone pointed a loaded rifle at me they would know about it.

 

[Greymaster]

Why not?? Personally, I think passing a 'test' is an unnecessary step.

The process of application and grant of SGC and FAC is stringent enough to vet applicants in my opinion. Does BASC think so little of its membership that you believe we shouldn't even be allowed a firearm without some sort of test?? We're all adults you know, we have to be before we're allowed to hold the certificates.

With friends like these, who needs enemies??

Maybe we should pass a test to be able to vote for the BASC Committee? Is that where we are heading? The BASC is a representative organisation, not a regulatory organisation.

 

[gerarddwatts]

I am assuming as he got shot in the arse he let his client crawl behind him with a loaded rifle...

He is the professional for a reason. If anyone pointed a loaded rifle at me they would know about it.

Exactly!! Because you've been properly trained. Years ago you would have been trained by a keeper, stalker, relative, friend, whatever. Nowadays there are, fortunately, people coming into the sport who sadly don't have that background. So that informal training that many of us had needs to be replaced with some form of training...and the world we live in dictates that some-one has to set parameters for that training. I would far rather that those parameters are influenced by organisations of which I am a member, and are not pure commercial training organisations. Be it BASC, BDS... whatever. Without that voluntary training the road to mandatory training becomes an inevitable one, and WILL be used to place yet more obstructions in the enjoyment of our sport.

 

[Greymaster]

Too many of the responses to this thread revolve around the cost and who profiteers from training courses etc, very few mention animal welfare and safety, and in my humble opinion both of those are paramount in what we do...
Steve.

When I see youtube videos of deer kills presented with agrressive "shoot 'em up" videogame style soundtracks I become very dismayed. When these are presented by DSC training outfits, I become more dismayed bordering on appalled.

When I hear hysterical laughter from mentor and pupil in the soundtrack at the death throes of the dying beast, or see high fives at the accuracy of the shot, I am dismayed.

There seems very little respect for the quarry in some of these videos. Animal welfare should be at the forefront alongside safety. And respect for the dying/dead quarry is well up there too.

Such videos do not help the cause of the shooter one iota and serve only to re-inforce public stereotypes. Shame.

 

[Irish Bob]

You dont pay for your own ammunition on a BASC course if you are using an Estate or Rifle Club Rifle.

Peter

Well I got charged £1 a shot. I am not bothered about this or asking for a refund. I just think you should be clear that you charge for ammunition on the DSC1.

 

[finnbear270]

I am assuming as he got shot in the arse he let his client crawl behind him with a loaded rifle...

He is the professional for a reason. If anyone pointed a loaded rifle at me they would know about it.

Say's it all really!

 

[achosenman]

I am assuming as he got shot in the arse he let his client crawl behind him with a loaded rifle...

He is the professional for a reason. If anyone pointed a loaded rifle at me they would know about it.

We don't know...we can't assume anything. Maybe the client loaded it without the stalker knowing.

The whole point is that someone got shot due to poor safety procedures/awareness while in the field.

I have seen a 243 discharged and the shot just missed the stalkers leg. The guest then tried to blame the stalker by saying that as the stalker should be carrying the clients rifle, he only had himself to blame. The guy was and is a first class Muppet.



ATB

 

[finnbear270]

No One should be in front of a muzzle.

 

[6pointer]

Gerard Scottish government are advised by SNH, the deer officers who work for SNH are deer stalkers past present and future.

May i say most of the deer officers came from BASC and still support BASC (CONFLICT OF INTEREST I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT)

If BASC get what they want and that is a mandatory test delivered by the voluntary sector (BASC through there own Quango DMQ)They will have full control of the examination process and thats not good for any one. (MONOPOLY,S DO NOT HELP ANY ONE)

With regards the cash mine is a major underestimation but you do not need to be a rocket scientist to realise that its a lot of cash.

Colin Sheddon (http://www.snh.gov.uk/docs/B978591.pdf) Colin can influence government decisions.



You are correct BASC are against mandatory testing and i am sure if the Scottish government bring it in they will decline to test them ?? Wake up .

Now the way it is at the moment BASC can have there cake and eat it.
Scottish government make it that you need to reach a required standard of competence that standard is DMQ 1 Basc deliver the standard they set and are happy . If the standard was made official by law then a proper examination system would need to be put in place. This would mean that the examination was kept separate from the preparation so BASC could not run both.

I am not against BASC at all and was once a member i am against an unfair system ran by QUANGO,S

 

[achosenman]

No One should be in front of a muzzle.

Or the muzzle should always be pointed in a safe direction.

ATB

 

[gerarddwatts]

Gerard Scottish government are advised by SNH, the deer officers who work for SNH are deer stalkers past present and future.

May i say most of the deer officers came from BASC and still support BASC (CONFLICT OF INTEREST I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT)

If BASC get what they want and that is a mandatory test delivered by the voluntary sector (BASC through there own Quango DMQ)They will have full control of the examination process and thats not good for any one. (MONOPOLY,S DO NOT HELP ANY ONE)

With regards the cash mine is a major underestimation but you do not need to be a rocket scientist to realise that its a lot of cash.

Colin Sheddon (http://www.snh.gov.uk/docs/B978591.pdf) Colin can influence government decisions.



You are correct BASC are against mandatory testing and i am sure if the Scottish government bring it in they will decline to test them ?? Wake up .

Now the way it is at the moment BASC can have there cake and eat it.
Scottish government make it that you need to reach a required standard of competence that standard is DMQ 1 Basc deliver the standard they set and are happy . If the standard was made official by law then a proper examination system would need to be put in place. This would mean that the examination was kept separate from the preparation so BASC could not run both.

I am not against BASC at all and was once a member i am against an unfair system ran by QUANGO,S

Look 6p I'm sure you mean well, but you can't keep spouting twaddle and not expect to be corrected.

SNH don't have deer officers. They have Wildlife Management Officers. Of course they are stalkers...it's their job????

Some...actually I think its one... SNH staff may have worked for BASC. So what? Are you implying that their integrity is questionable? You need to be able to offer evidence if you are to impugn them in this way.

What bit of 'BASC do not support mandatory testing' do you have difficulty understanding?

Colin Sheddon works very hard for the shooting community through his job with BASC. He does not work for SNH, although I'm confident SNH would appreciate his advice. I'm sure he would love to be able to influence the Scottish Government, but he has no more influence than, say Ian Clarke, or indeed you or me.

Now you are confusing me? First you say they are, then you say they are not???

Don't understand your cake issues.

The Scottish Government haven't made it 'that you need to reach a required standard....' Nor will they if they heed the input from BASC, SACS and everyone else with a voice. Despite those submissions, they might go ahead and do it anyway. Should they unfortunately take that route, I would far rather that my representative organisations were there fighting to make sure any test was fair and clear. They are unlikely to entrust that to any one particular organisation. We can draw an immediate parallel with the snaring legislation which requires that a practitioner attend, and qualify at, a course run by one of several different organisations, SGA, GWCT and BASC.

This whole thread started with your allegation that BASC..and BDS... voted for mandatory testing at 'deer panels'. What deer panel? What is a 'deer panel'? What vote?
You have not been able to substantiate your allegation, or offer any evidence other than your own misinformed conjecture, rather, you keep recycling misconceptions and presenting them as facts.

I suspect that you will plod on in your own little suspicious world despite any argument to the contrary, so I'm out now. Passed a very snowy afternoon though!

 

[David63]

Get your facts straight six pointer – you are making mischievous, some may think bordering on malicious statements about BASC that you cannot prove or substantiate. To be clear, here are the key bits of misinformation you have spouted against BASC.

1. From your very first post on this thread- why is it that BASC and BDS say they are against mandatory testing when the reality is that they voted for it on the deer panels they are on in Scotland.This is an absolute untruth – you make up this allegation with no evidence what so ever - BASC have not ever voted for mandatory testing on any ‘deer panel’

2. From your post no 72 you state ‘stand to gain 100,000 od pounds over the next few years and have already lined there pockets with 100,000,s of our hard earned cash’This is an absolute untruth – again you make up this allegation with no evidence what so ever - BASC does not stand to gain £100,000's over the next few years nor has BASC made £100,000's of thousands out of stalker training

3. In your post 94 you state ‘If BASC get what they want and that is a mandatory test delivered by the voluntary sector...This is an absolute untruth, again you make up an allegation with no evidence what so ever, As I have repeatedly stated BASC oppose mandatory testing.

4. Again in post 94 you state ‘a mandatory test delivered by the voluntary sector (BASC through there own Quango DMQ).This is an absolute untruth again you make up an allegation with no evidence what so ever DMQ is not even a quango let alone a BASC quango .

I am afraid your continued pointless false and frankly mischievous allegations against BASC , most probably aimed at attempting to discredit BASC, only serve to discredit much of what you say, and frankly look like little more than your ranting about BASC for some personal reason– I have answered you opening question/ allegation.

David

 

[6pointer]

David my posts could be more accurate if you posted reply,s that were factual your self.

How much money have BASC made from the training and implementation of DMQ ?

Is DMQ a totally independent company from BASC and BDS or dose BASC /BDS still have an influence on DMQ ?

Dose DR Colin Shedden have influence at a high level at BASC and at SNH


Like i said David all that i want is a fair deal for the recreational deer stalker with no hidden deal.s

At this moment in time there is a conflict of interest were the vote for competence go through as is do you agree.
That is the dcs1 mandatory to shoot deer in Scotland delivered by the private sector DMQ ????

 

[bogtrotter]

When I see youtube videos of deer kills presented with agrressive "shoot 'em up" videogame style soundtracks I become very dismayed. When these are presented by DSC training outfits, I become more dismayed bordering on appalled.

When I hear hysterical laughter from mentor and pupil in the soundtrack at the death throes of the dying beast, or see high fives at the accuracy of the shot, I am dismayed.

There seems very little respect for the quarry in some of these videos. Animal welfare should be at the forefront alongside safety. And respect for the dying/dead quarry is well up there too.

Such videos do not help the cause of the shooter one iota and serve only to re-inforce public stereotypes. Shame.

I am inclined to agree with these statements.

 

[Sharpie]

Well I got charged £1 a shot. I am not bothered about this or asking for a refund. I just think you should be clear that you charge for ammunition on the DSC1.

Likewise, I took my DSC1 with the BDS and was charged a lot of money for use of the rifle and ammo.

I was pretty annoyed because this was not made clear when I booked, and the payment was required to be made in cash, on the day, with no receipt.

I had intended to take a club rifle and ammo. I am a full member of an HO approved rifle club, hold an NRA competency certificate, so allowed to take a club rifle and ammo to shoot at another club, i.e. the BDS "club" which is how they operate the shooting test. My club secretary was quite happy with this.

When I called to confirm this arrangement every obstacle was put in my way.

They refused to understand that what I proposed was perfectly legal, they claimed that I had to use "deer legal" i.e. section 5 ammo, they said I wouldn't be insured, etc. etc.

Then the killer punch, not only would I have to pay to use their rifle and ammo, but I would also have to join the BDS and so become a "BDS club" member before I would be allowed to use them.

And if I wanted to cancel my booking my fee would not be returned because it was less than 2 weeks away.

So I forked out. On the day it turned out that the bullets provided were handloads using cheap FMJ bullets.

I felt badly ripped-off.