BASC response to Firearms Licensing Guidance Consultation

And there's many ways to get funding for such. Ask people to donate something to a fund raising raffle, set up a premium rate text so people can send a text and thus donate a couple of Pounds. The probem is that this is 2019. Not 1981 when BASC came into being. There needs to be innovation and there needed to be, even if it might fail, a crowd funded judicial review of this. Yet again BASC has missed the bus.
 
We made it clear many months ago that the legal advice was that a JD was not going to success or make any difference, regarding 10 year certificates, this is clearly referred to in the letter I posted above.
Now please all, remember that when those who oppose shooting make up 'facts' to support their weak argument , you rightly condemn them...but then some of you choose to do exactly the same things to target the very organisation that's working to try and help you, and indeed, many who do this are not members!
It would have been great me meet and greet some of you at the Game Fair so you could have had a chat with our CEO, or Exec Director of Comms who looks after our political programme, some of our political officers, or head of media to discuss this or other issues and express your concerns, which we could have answered...
Find a new legal team. May I recommend the services of Leigh Day?
 
Well I’ve emailed BASC David after receiving an email. I will if you wish give you my membership number as confirmation. After 45years of loyal payment of subs this issue is the straw that’s broken this camels back. I will NOT be renewing my membership. As far as discussing this face to face at the game fair. Those executives you referred too were to busy in the members tent drinking pimms to discuss anything with the likes of me who has contributed my hard earned to what has become the BASC,s cash cow.

And that my friend is the rub. BASC has forgotten why it exists, and it isn’t for the benefit of cigar smoking, Brandy drinking hooray Henry’s.

RS
 
I will state, with some confidence, that unless the British Association of Shooting & Conservation starts dipping into that often lauded '£8 million fighting fund', puts down its pen and puts to bed its platitudes and instead is prepared to don a set of gloves and risk some of those cosy relationships it has formed over the last 50 or so years that, in the words of one fierce opponent to grouse and pheasant shooting, it is well and truly spent.

You want us to 'stop bickering' and support the organisation? Then prove you have the guts and determination to challenge these amendments, to force constabularies to have more than simple 'regard' to HO guidance, put an end to the personal fiefdoms of Chief Constables, to advise on a fair set of laws with a basis in fact and proportionality, to ensure that GP's do not have the freedom to bring their own personal bias to bear, or better still, have no involvement other than to place the 'enduring marker' on an applicants record unless any medical conditions have been highlighted by the applicant in the application. Do that and you may just find you have more support and respect than you will ever need.

Strongly worded letters are lovely, but they are just that. There can be no argument that a fair set of laws, fairly and uniformly applied, is desirable for all parties. For shooters, for the government, for constabularies, for public safety (what little existing risk there is). You just need to find the means to get there but none other is as well placed for the task, but perhaps, not yet well enough equipped?
 
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Well I’ve emailed BASC David after receiving an email. I will if you wish give you my membership number as confirmation. After 45years of loyal payment of subs this issue is the straw that’s broken this camels back. I will NOT be renewing my membership. As far as discussing this face to face at the game fair. Those executives you referred too were to busy in the members tent drinking pimms to discuss anything with the likes of me who has contributed my hard earned to what has become the BASC,s cash cow.

And that my friend is the rub. BASC has forgotten why it exists, and it isn’t for the benefit of cigar smoking, Brandy drinking hooray Henry’s.

RS
Exactly this RS:thumb:..
 
We made it clear many months ago that the legal advice was that a JD was not going to success or make any difference, regarding 10 year certificates, this is clearly referred to in the letter I posted above.
Now please all, remember that when those who oppose shooting make up 'facts' to support their weak argument , you rightly condemn them...but then some of you choose to do exactly the same things to target the very organisation that's working to try and help you, and indeed, many who do this are not members!
It would have been great me meet and greet some of you at the Game Fair so you could have had a chat with our CEO, or Exec Director of Comms who looks after our political programme, some of our political officers, or head of media to discuss this or other issues and express your concerns, which we could have answered...

I went into the BASC tent on Friday at the Game Fair and asked to speak with a Political Officer. There was one there apparently but he was busy. I accidently met the SE Region Representative and put some questions to the lady. I put the following to her and other BASC bods who gathered round:

1/ So much for POs - how are we going to measure whether they have done a good job. i.e. has the softly softly approach and being at the top table actually improved the lot for shooters? What politician is going to do anything for shooters when there are no votes in it. Even BoJo was lukewarm on the matter. They appeared wedded to the concept that the politicians need to be educated with the benefits of shooting to the countryside. I tended to disagree, so please explain how do we measure whether the PO have been worth our investment. What win can they point to so show that working with parliamentarians actually improves the lot of shooters?

2/ I stated that the only way to be taken seriously is to go to law and drag a chief constable into court to explain why he is making up his own firearms regulations such as no medical report no licence. i.e. do as the NGO did and win a judicial review. I said Andy Marsh had duped them for ACPO with e-commerce promises in return for licence fee increases. Promises of 10 year licences with continuous monitoring. What did we get, increased fees and paying twice us much because we have to pay medical fees or no ticket. They said that it was a big win that one police area was postponing no medical no licence introduction until after the consultation. I disagreed that getting one force to do nothing was an actual win. WJ had paid £36K to just start a JR and NE had capitulated and so would have to pay their costs, and they now have the £36K to spend on another JR over release of gamebirds into the wild. I said BASC credibility is rock bottom and will remain so until they spend some of their £8m reserves going to law.

3/ They argued that a the FOI survey was a big success as it showed that some forces were failing with delays. I disagreed that there was any benefit whatsoever as all that was achieved was to institutionalise an 8 week grace period whereby your licence could be expired by 8 weeks and you would not have to surrender your firearms. They thought that this was a big win. I disagreed as all it meant was that they did not have to issue S7 notices and they could be just as lazy and inefficient as ever. And by the way, there will always by 15 out of 43 poorest performers in any table of performance. There will be no improvement until they are all renewing before deadline day. I said I had improved on their stats to show how many forces would fail even to meet the 8 week grace period.

4/ I then took them to task for bottling it over Packham at the Game Fair. How can they complain that ITV banned them from confronting Packham on Breakfast TV after he has secured and exclusive interview, and how they were up in arms at the banning of Safari Hunters from the British Shooting Show, when they have bottled it and banned Packham from the GF. You can never win an argument by no platforming the opposition and not arguing your case and defeating theirs. The SE rep understood that the issue was that CP was bringing his own camera team and they would be in control of the edit which would never be fair. So I said Fieldsports Britain would have their own cameras and could be relied upon as journalists to be even handed as their recent interviews with Avery and other Antis had been. I said there were many like me on the forums expressing our anger at the ineptitude of BASC in giving him a propaganda win. BASC reps seemed more put out that Jacoby had gone out and done his own thing getting this debate off the ground. To stick one to Jacoby seemed to be a big win to them. They were dismissive of forums generally.

5/ With respect to the "Statutory Guidance" I asked them to explain if it was legally binding or guidance. It cannot be both. I mentioned that the amendment to the Firearms Act 1968 requiring Chiefs of Police to have due regard to HOG, was toothless as they are flouting HOG anyway. They imagined that the new "Statutory Guidance" was going to be the answer, and I reminded them that BASC and other shooters organisations had failed to get them written in as needing to be consulted by law when guidance was to be changed. Unlike the NPCC and the Scottish Police Service who are specifically mentioned as having to be consulted. If you recall that this BIG FAT FAIL was dismissed by David BASC as it did not matter anyway ways as BASC are at the top table. This was the occasion David then went walkabout having spat the dummy when we laughed at him. Meanwhile the Chiefs of Police have run rings around BASC since.

6/ I told them that the CP ban was the last straw for many and that Conor was asked to resign for the serial ineptitude of BASC. With no wins to speak of in years.

When I showed them my BASC membership card they said, "We presume you got in for free. Is that not a big win for you?". They gave me a BASC umbrella as it was raining heavily and said they would get the SE rep to meet with me with the SE Political Officer.

Some MP then showed up to make a speech and that brought an agreed end to discussions.


The SE Rep took my details and promised that I could meet up with her and a PO after the GF. Still awaiting details of that David BASC.
 
Well I’ve emailed BASC David after receiving an email. I will if you wish give you my membership number as confirmation. After 45years of loyal payment of subs this issue is the straw that’s broken this camels back. I will NOT be renewing my membership. As far as discussing this face to face at the game fair. Those executives you referred too were to busy in the members tent drinking pimms to discuss anything with the likes of me who has contributed my hard earned to what has become the BASC,s cash cow.

And that my friend is the rub. BASC has forgotten why it exists, and it isn’t for the benefit of cigar smoking, Brandy drinking hooray Henry’s.

RS

My experience entirely.
 
They would have spoken to you if you had asked, and certainly spent more time on the stand than in meetings behind the stand, I was also available all three days, sorry to have missed you, and thank you very much for your support in the past.

As to how and when and where BASC spends members money, that, strategically, is down to the elected members of BASC Council, many of who were also available at the game fair including the Chairman and Vice Chair
 
Thanks Greymaster, I have sent a note to Dan (head of SE) and Michelle, one of his team, who may have been the lady you spoke to. I know they are at another event for the next few days
 
On the basis that from a public safety perspective there is no difference between a 222, 243, 270, 308 etc the biggest change that would free up huge amounts of police time is to remove the need for each and every rifle to be authorised.

If an individual is fit to hold a rifle / rifles, then he is fit to hold a rifle whether its a 243 or 300 win mag. Appreciate that having the number unrestricted is very unlikely, but the system in Northern Ireland should be adopted across the UK. ie you can have various slots - eg you can have a rimfire for vermin, a small centrefire for foxes, two large centrefires for deer stalking and other lawful quarry, target rifle etc etc

In other words if you want to change a rifle you can do so easily - hand one into an RFD and walk out with another. At the moment it's a post code lottery as to whether a one for one can be granted in 2 minutes or several months.
 
The banning of Packham from the Game Fair is close to being the last straw for BASC for me. They need a lesson in gun safety, ie, how to avoid shooting oneself in the foot.
My first port of call at the event was the BDS stand, where I took out a membership subscription, so that's my insurance requirements covered.
 
They would have spoken to you if you had asked, and certainly spent more time on the stand than in meetings behind the stand, I was also available all three days, sorry to have missed you, and thank you very much for your support in the past.

As to how and when and where BASC spends members money, that, strategically, is down to the elected members of BASC Council, many of who were also available at the game fair including the Chairman and Vice Chair
That’s the problem right there David basc refuse to admit there is a problem with thier org ..... and they never will
 
no BASC has not 'traded' anything, yet another false accusation without anything at all to back it up!

I'm not sure I'd use the word 'traded', but it did appear to me that BASC had agreed that applicants paying for medical reports was acceptable in the context of the (IMO spurious) benefit of 10-year certificates.
So there does appear to be something, viz. the concept that FAC/SGC applicants have to pay only the fee set down by Parliament, that BASC took to the negotiating-table and left there. It wasn't 'traded' as such, as there was no benefit received in return.
It wasn't even BASC's to offer in the first place, as it is a fundamental part of the whole concept of firearms certification in the context of an ongoing, if often overlooked, right to possess.

I include part of Mick's post, just to show I'm not alone in identifying this as a bit of bargaining that didn't come off.
Is it because this was seen as a trade off to get ten year certificates, which I now acknowledge will never happen?

I worry that BASC does not seem to have recognised anything wrong in anything they've done so far - which IMO makes it likely that the fundamental errors will be repeated.
 
Dalua's post above is crucial. You have to KNOW you are doing something wrong to put it right. BASC doesnt accept it has done anything wrong.
Alternatively that bad news was a long time ago 2 years and we should all move on.
I know all shooters will put together around something which they fully support we havent got it and BASC isnt and never will be it until - read the first line.
 
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