Bolt fluting proof

[dropmdead]

I posted up here some time ago asking if the bolt was fluted does it need reproofing?
I got a over whelming answer from all the RFD on here as a no.
I saw a rifle for sale built by James Clark and the rifle had a fluted bolt. Asked who done it as I had asked previously James Clark to do mine at the same time as getting a Krieger barrel fitted by him, but got a "No" as the bolt had to be reproofed and didn't want to involved.

Anyway, differing answers from different RFD, and short of going to the proof house myself ( I am sure RFD's/gunsmiths have already hence asking here and not wasting the proof houses time), what's the definitive consensus??

 

[Heym SR20]

I posted up here some time ago asking if the bolt was fluted does it need reproofing?
I got a over whelming answer from all the RFD on here as a no.
I saw a rifle for sale built by James Clark and the rifle had a fluted bolt. Asked who done it as I had asked previously James Clark to do mine at the same time as getting a Krieger barrel fitted by him, but got a "No" as the bolt had to be reproofed and didn't want to involved.

Anyway, differing answers from different RFD, and short of going to the proof house myself ( I am sure RFD's/gunsmiths have already hence asking here and not wasting the proof houses time), what's the definitive consensus??

I would not take an Internet Forum’s view. I would take the views of the Proof House. I would also be very wary of any gunsmith who wouldn’t want to subject his work to the rules of proof

Key words from proof house

“Arms previously proven and bearing apparently valid proof marks are deemed out of proof if any pressure bearing component of the small arm has been materially weakened in substance or strength. “

Full proof house rules available on link below.

https://www.gunproof.com/downloads/rules-proofing

 

[takbok]

My view is find a good gunsmith or machinist who will flute the bolt without the proofing hassle - there are very competent gunsmiths who will do this. Fluting a bolt with forward locking lugs does not weaken it for primary pressure bearing.

 

[Eric the Red]

My view is find a good gunsmith or machinist who will flute the bolt without the proofing hassle - there are very competent gunsmiths who will do this. Fluting a bolt with forward locking lugs does not weaken it for primary pressure bearing.

Jack Rollings - JR Firearms - Custom rifle builder and Gunsmith services by J R Firearms -Bedfordshire, Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire, northamptonshire.

Just one question - 'at the time of getting a rebarrel' - so surely that needs to go to proof? So it could all be done at the same time......?

 

[cjm1066]

If its a front locking bolt the engagement and hence pressure bearing part is at the the front of the bolt, the bits behind do nothing to control pressure and so aren't pressure bearing.

Hence you could cut off the front part of the bolt with the locking lugs and the rifle would contain the pressure, it might be very difficult to operate and have no firing mechanism but that's another issue.

Go back a few year and we screw cut 1,000 of 22 for silences and never sent them for proof, as we did at one stage for C/F.

 

[dropmdead]

Jack Rollings - JR Firearms - Custom rifle builder and Gunsmith services by J R Firearms -Bedfordshire, Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire, northamptonshire.

Just one question - 'at the time of getting a rebarrel' - so surely that needs to go to proof? So it could all be done at the same time....

I believe it may have been an afterthought, hence why it reignited the whole thing...

 

[tackb]

you have to get moderator threading reproofed if you shorten a barrel so i'd say bolt fluting would need re proofing

but i am also of the opinion that the proof house is a little bit 'jobs for the boys' personally

 

[Demetrius]

Why would you want to flute a bolt? I can understand doing a barrel, increased surface area, so slightly better cooling.

D.

 

[Jagged77]

Why would you want to flute a bolt? I can understand doing a barrel, increased surface area, so slightly better cooling.

D.

For most of our rifles it’s for aesthetic reasons. However if your life depended on it and you were using it in harsh conditions, fluting will help remove debris that could interfere with running the bolt, especially if tight tolerance to begin with.

 

[Demetrius]

As I suspected, "bling".......

D

 

[303British]

You don't have to proof it, but if you ever want to sell it you will have to have it proofed or you would be selling out of proof.

 

[8x57]

My view is find a good gunsmith or machinist who will flute the bolt without the proofing hassle - there are very competent gunsmiths who will do this. Fluting a bolt with forward locking lugs does not weaken it for primary pressure bearing.

As you say with a a bolt with forward locking lugs it should not weaken it for primary pressure bearing.
However I've often read that the bolt handle locking into the receiver is considered to be a third/fourth safety lug in the unlikely event of bolt failure. Therefore could fluting the bolt possibly be considered as weakening a potentially pressure bearing part and thus require proofing?

 

[suburban bushwacker]

I posted up here some time ago asking if the bolt was fluted does it need reproofing?
I got a over whelming answer from all the RFD on here as a no.
I saw a rifle for sale built by James Clark and the rifle had a fluted bolt. Asked who done it as I had asked previously James Clark to do mine at the same time as getting a Krieger barrel fitted by him, but got a "No" as the bolt had to be reproofed and didn't want to involved.

Anyway, differing answers from different RFD, and short of going to the proof house myself ( I am sure RFD's/gunsmiths have already hence asking here and not wasting the proof houses time), what's the definitive consensus??

before this denigrates into another tedious anti-james thread. here's a screen shot of James clarifying his position,. as I understand it there is a rifle where James fitted a barrel that later had its bolt fluted by another gunsmith. James has been abundantly clear that he regards the rifle to be out of proof and it being a matter for the proof house to decide if an offence has been committed.

 

[takbok]

As you say with a a bolt with forward locking lugs it should not weaken it for primary pressure bearing.
However I've often read that the bolt handle locking into the receiver is considered to be a third/fourth safety lug in the unlikely event of bolt failure. Therefore could fluting the bolt possibly be considered as weakening a potentially pressure bearing part and thus require proofing?

That's true, it is a failure mode that could be considered, but the proof house won't be able to test or verify the effects of fluting on this IMO.

 

[enfieldspares]

I posted up here some time ago asking if the bolt was fluted does it need reproofing?

Any operation that by removing metal affects the material strength of a barrel, action or bolt would require re-proof IF IT WERE TO BE SOLD TO A THIRD PARTY SUBSEQUENT TO THAT WORK BEING DONE. If the work is done for you then as there is no sale, nor display for sale, then the Rules if Proof do not apply. It is no business of the Proof House what an owner does to their own gun the law believes.

Note that as far as I know is that choke boring subsequent to original manufacture and proof requires no reproof as the choke rules on a shotgun barrel apply at nine inches from the point of ignition. Back boring full length if it takes it out of the measure at that nine inches does require reproof as does AKAIR re profiling the lead between chamber and barrel.

On a rifle fluting and screw cutting for a muzzle fitting moderator require proof if done subsequent to manufacture and then the weapon is sold to a third party at ANY future time. On a shogun internal screw cutting at the muzzle for screw in chokes if done after original manufacture and proof also is deemed to require reproof is sold to a third party at any future time.

If any such work is done by you to your gun or done at your instruction to your gun then in the letter of the Proof Act AFAIK a reproof is not needed. But come the time to sell on to another or offer at auction and /or display for sale? Yes it will be required!

The advice of others to ask the Proof House is the best advice!

 

[Loki]

Hi

Jackson Rifles has Counsels Opinion on whether or not threading of a barrel affects it strength etc. Interesting read me thinks.
It may be possible to extrapolate the Opinion to a bolt as a pressure bearing part..........

The Proof House has a vested interest as in charge you - not come across any prosecution by them of anyone to date on these matters.

Link: Reflex Suppressors UK Proof Counsel's Opinion

L

 

[Heym SR20]

..

 

[JRF]

The Birmingham Proof House’s stance is that it would require re-proofing but only if you were to sell the firearm, much like muzzle threading etc. From a technical standpoint, the fluting is behind the lugs, therefore it does not alter the strength of a pressure bearing component.

 

[dropmdead]

The Birmingham Proof House’s stance is that it would require re-proofing but only if you were to sell the firearm, much like muzzle threading etc. From a technical standpoint, the fluting is behind the lugs, therefore it does not alter the strength of a pressure bearing component.

Would this be the same then a barrel? You can be in possession of a barrel, but cannot sell the firearm until it is proofed?
How is it for a rfd to give/sell (money changing hands directly or indirectly) a pressure bearing part that hasnt been proofed and fit it on to a rifle ?

I presume that the process is that you post the bolt directly to the chap doing the job. Once done it comes back to the rifle , do you submit the bolt to the rfd, and the bolt gets sent out to the chap doing the and back to the rfd, you present your rifle, and the bolt is fitted in front of the rfd.

 

[DVS1]

I totally get the legislation within the UK is in place and not likely to be changing anytime soon but when you consider the vast volumes of barrels, bolts, threading etc completed in the USA where there is no requisite for 'proofing' and considering the adoration for suing anyone for anything you would think such a test would be desired to 'finger' someone to blame.

Makes you wonder if the proof house days could be numbered when combined with the seemingly desire to reduce firearm owners in the UK.