Can a breeder stop you from breeding

[gixer1]

My wife’s aunt bought a very expensive labradoodle - it was speyed as a pup to prevent breeding….absolutely ridiculous! I’d have told them to poke it and bought a dog somewhere else!

Regards,
Gixer

 

[jimmy milnes]

Ok guess im Satan....

Every litter ive bred of GSP has had endorsements on and these have been fully explained to perspective new owners.
When registering the litter with the kc i include endorsements against removing from this country and registering of any litters produced by the pup.
I explain to each and every owner that if they show me the dogs worth breeding from "these are a working breed same as a spaniel so giving a paw and playing dead doesn't count" I'll remove the endorsement but if its just a pet 90 % of the time and they want to make a fast buck by breeding they can get f00fed...
Id be concerned if the person in question was put off by such a contract as to if id want them to have a pup id bred....
Too many pumped out for profit pooches out there already..
Jimmy.

 

[VSS]

Surely these endorsements not to breed must devalue the animal considerably? In fact, they make it totally pointless for anyone to buy a registered pedigree animal. The whole point of buying pedigree is to breed pedigree. Without the right to breed and register offspring then a non-registered or even a cross-bred animal is equally suitable for anyone's needs, and probably a lot cheaper.

 

[jimmy milnes]

Surely these endorsements not to breed must devalue the animal considerably? In fact, they make it totally pointless for anyone to buy a registered pedigree animal. The whole point of buying pedigree is to breed pedigree. Without the right to breed and register offspring then a non-registered or even a cross-bred animal is equally suitable for anyone's needs, and probably a lot cheaper.

As you say "if i remember correctly from previous posts" you have an array of experience with sheep dogs are people not so protective about possibly breeding crap pups for the sake of it in those circles ?

 

[The Singing Stalker]

I’m no expert but everything I read would make me shy away from the KC because of the state of some of the dogs that seem to be approved.

 

[countrryboy]

Wow a can of worms I’ve opened?!! It is from a KC registered breeder, who is apparently well known and goes above and beyond what the KC requires. It’s not mega money either, under £1k. It’s all most 100% that the pup wouldn’t be bred from but like others have said, don’t buy it if you can’t keep to the contract.

As has been said the restriction/endorsement can change from breeder to breeder, some will want full health tests done or as jimmy has said want to see evidence that it is worth breeding from.


U have said urself the breeder is experienced knows her breed and really looks after the pups, why would u want to look anywhere else?
Esp when not asking an awful lot of money
Have u asked the details of the restrictions? Most breeders are ok removing them IF they think ur not going to be a puppy farmer and just after money.

The a@@e has completely dropped out of the puppy market the now ( thank god) and prices are back to wot they should be if not even lower than before the pandemic, Heard a few folk locally struggling to get rid of pups and some are decent working dogs
Doing pupies right takes a bit of time and money and while u can make a wee bit with the prices/market the way it is now u could also lose a bit or even lose ur bitch, is it worth the risk esp just with a pet
Half the probelm with uk working dog breeding is folk that think there dog is great when in fact it is average or even sh@te and u would be far better off buying better in.

I have heard it more so with male dogs, most trailers make very little money even winning the FT, most prizes are still 30-50 quid and a bag of dog food, i think even the championship is 250 quid, its the breeding rights esp with a male dog they make the money from.
Very easy for someone to buy a male pup of a FTCH put zero time or effort into training it no health checks, but simply stud it out at a cheap rate undercutting the original breeder


Vss. Why would a long established breeder who has worked hard to get a good name not try to protect the kennel name/reputatuion?
That bitch pup could be sold and mated at 2yr old to any old scabby un health checked sire, if those pups then develop health problems it will be that kennel name dragged throu the mud.
Say they have the 3 allowed repeat mating with same sire and a % of all the pups develop a cognitive heart defect or epilepsy, her kennel would be avoided and tarred with it.

 

[Leec6.5]

A contract is will be a commercial contract between two parties and thus it will be a matter of a breach of contract. It will a contract willingly entered into by two parties.

It very much depends. If the bitch will be spayed and there is no intention to breed then it is a non question.

If your sister is thinking of having a litter then perhaps it is. Some breeders are very protective of their bloodlines and to whom puppies go. I know that in Germany if you take a puppy of certain breeds you agree that it will be trained and pass its hunting exams and if it does not the breeder has the right to take it back.

A dog and other livestock are treated as property and as the vendor you can put conditions on any bill of sale. Whether the customer accepts these and enters into the sale, or walks away is another matter.

And if after the sale the bitch is then rogerred by the local pitbull (she likes a bit of rough) will the breeder really take you to court.

Personally I would find another dog, unless you want top pedigree, in which case you will be paying the price for a pedigree.

You are 100% correct!

 

[countrryboy]

I’m no expert but everything I read would make me shy away from the KC because of the state of some of the dogs that seem to be approved.

To be fair that is more the show side of things.

With a working dog/breed the dog must be fit enough to work ( althou fashion still has a say spaniels getting smaller, almost too small and almost white, and labs becoming lanky skinny things with poor coats and tails)
But they stil have to be biddable enough to train, fit enough and have drive to work all day so ur not going to have the same problems u have with show dogs which are bred purely for looks


All the KC is is a registery office for dogs, it only records lineage, that is all, it does make certain rules about close/line breeding and amount of litters etc but to be fair most of them are sensible enough.
It does give advice on various health checks for the breeds but all just advice and doesn't enforce them unfortunately

Its also a shame it does not insist on vets/owners notifying them if a dog is diagnosed with certain diseases so u could see wot lines are carrying wot diseases /genes.
Most of the computery stuff is already there with there MyKC part of the site, if u wanted to bred of ur bitch u could have a check on health of related dogs 1st to makes sure no underlying health issues that ur bitch may carry

 

[25 Sharps]

A neighbour has a dog from a breeder who has a similar contract but it is that the dogs she sells should never be vaccinated!

 

[jimmy milnes]

As has been said the restriction/endorsement can change from breeder to breeder, some will want full health tests done or as jimmy has said want to see evidence that it is worth breeding from.


U have said urself the breeder is experienced knows her breed and really looks after the pups, why would u want to look anywhere else?
Esp when not asking an awful lot of money
Have u asked the details of the restrictions? Most breeders are ok removing them IF they think ur not going to be a puppy farmer and just after money.

The a@@e has completely dropped out of the puppy market the now ( thank god) and prices are back to wot they should be if not even lower than before the pandemic, Heard a few folk locally struggling to get rid of pups and some are decent working dogs
Doing pupies right takes a bit of time and money and while u can make a wee bit with the prices/market the way it is now u could also lose a bit or even lose ur bitch, is it worth the risk esp just with a pet
Half the probelm with uk working dog breeding is folk that think there dog is great when in fact it is average or even sh@te and u would be far better off buying better in.

I have heard it more so with male dogs, most trailers make very little money even winning the FT, most prizes are still 30-50 quid and a bag of dog food, i think even the championship is 250 quid, its the breeding rights esp with a male dog they make the money from.
Very easy for someone to buy a male pup of a FTCH put zero time or effort into training it no health checks, but simply stud it out at a cheap rate undercutting the original breeder


Vss. Why would a long established breeder who has worked hard to get a good name not try to protect the kennel name/reputatuion?
That bitch pup could be sold and mated at 2yr old to any old scabby un health checked sire, if those pups then develop health problems it will be that kennel name dragged throu the mud.
Say they have the 3 allowed repeat mating with same sire and a % of all the pups develop a cognitive heart defect or epilepsy, her kennel would be avoided and tarred with it.

Another problem with removing the restriction is that you can't just remove it for one litter... Once removed the new owner cant spew 4 registered litters out of the bitch and if a stud can just bang anything coming through the door.
It would be a much better system if they did it mating by mating.
Jimmy

 

[bobthedug]

I know of one chap who bought a pup under similar conditions. The pup, a Weiramaner was a nice bitch and he subsequently mated her. Sold the pups as “non kc registered”.
Original breeder takes him to Court and bottom line is he lost a fair bit of money, more than several litters worth.
If you don’t agree with or intend to adhere to any conditions that come with the pup, don’t buy it

 

[countrryboy]

Another problem with removing the restriction is that you can't just remove it for one litter... Once removed the new owner cant spew 4 registered litters out of the bitch and if a stud can just bang anything coming through the door.
It would be a much better system if they did it mating by mating.
Jimmy

Must admit in the past on here when it was like a war zone on the dog threads with some of the european/german ideas about breeding/training i used to think wot a load of BS, just so strictly regulated etc.

But now more and more i look at the breeding in this country and just shake my head at some of the bitches bred from ( even more so since lock down) the compulsory testing both health and working ability, and u don't even get to pick ur chosen sire.
The 'breed supervisor' for the area will look at pedigrees and asses the bitch to see wot type of sire would suit, which would make a far more varied gene pool as top studs couldn't be used as much as they are i this country ( i know some studding 2-3 times a week and booked solid)

Most knowledgeable trainers/breeders esp from smaller lines would be more than happy to offer advice on suitable decent studs to a puppy owner who was hoping to breed a litter as it means they could potentiall buy a pup back for there own breeding program

 

[VSS]

As you say "if i remember correctly from previous posts" you have an array of experience with sheep dogs are people not so protective about possibly breeding crap pups for the sake of it in those circles ?

Vss. Why would a long established breeder who has worked hard to get a good name not try to protect the kennel name/reputatuion?

If a pup that's bred from a dog I've sold goes on and does well then that's a real feather in my cap. It's exactly what I want to see. Same with other livestock. If people breed good stock from my bloodlines then it enhances my reputation.
(If, on the other hand, people get poor results from stock I've bred then I need to up my game, not hide the faults behind a load of endorsements in order to prop up an undeserved reputation).

if those pups then develop health problems it will be that kennel name dragged throu the mud.
Say they have the 3 allowed repeat mating with same sire and a % of all the pups develop a cognitive heart defect or epilepsy, her kennel would be avoided and tarred with it.

Quite right too! Congenital defects don't pop up simply as a result of poor breeding on one side. It needs to be there on both. Seems to me that the breeders are using these endorsements to hide faults in their own bloodlines. About time they got taken down a peg or two, by the sounds of it.

To put it in a nutshell, I would say that anyone putting non breeding endorsements on pups isn't trying to protect something, they're trying to hide something, and I would avoid their bloodlines like the plague.

 

[bobthedug]

A neighbour has a dog from a breeder who has a similar contract but it is that the dogs she sells should never be vaccinated!

That could result in any claim against the pet insurance being rejected or greatly reduced. Also rather foolish as the dogs require vaccinations. Mind you, I don’t see the merit in dogs being vaccinated every year against the same diseases. That’s a debate for another day.

 

[25 Sharps]

That could result in any claim against the pet insurance being rejected or greatly reduced. Also rather foolish as the dogs require vaccinations. Mind you, I don’t see the merit in dogs being vaccinated every year against the same diseases. That’s a debate for another day.

Yeah it’s crazy really, just like anti vax humans!! I think no breeding is part of the same contract. Golden retrievers

 

[jimmy milnes]

If a pup that's bred from a dog I've sold goes on and does well then that's a real feather in my cap. It's exactly what I want to see. Same with other livestock. If people breed good stock from my bloodlines then it enhances my reputation.
(If, on the other hand, people get poor results from stock I've bred then I need to up my game, not hide the faults behind a load of endorsements in order to prop up an undeserved reputation)

So if you bred a pup an it wasn't up to scratch, you'd blame yourself for not enough thought going into the mating..?
Thats very good an possibly to a degree id agree with you, depending on if the owner knew how to train a dog..
However this pup you have bred that hasn't made the grade, should this be bred from?

 

[Dunwaters]

Another problem with removing the restriction is that you can't just remove it for one litter... Once removed the new owner cant spew 4 registered litters out of the bitch and if a stud can just bang anything coming through the door.
It would be a much better system if they did it mating by mating.
Jimmy

If I bought a pup it’d be with the idea of trialling it and maybe breeding 1 or max 2 litters, primarily a replacement for myself in 4 or 5 years but if the pup was successful and there was some interest I have no problem breeding her twice.
It can be a right pain trying to contact the original breeder to get the endorsement removed several years down the line so I just won’t buy a dog with an endorsed pedigree.
I don’t endorse the pedigrees of the pups I sell either, I take the view that once I transfer it to you, its your pup.

 

[wag]

The last litter I breed had KC restrictions. Purely to ensure that future matings had all its breed specific health checks. I'm passionate about GWPs and my line. I want to see the health of the breed going foward safe as it can be. The thought of epilepsy , heart condition,elbows,hips blah blah entering my line would finish it and yes I know there's no guarantees but as long as I've done my bit I feel happier. It's called being responsible. I don't see what all the fuss is about.

 

[VSS]

So if you bred a pup an it wasn't up to scratch, you'd blame yourself for not enough thought going into the mating..?
Thats very good an possibly to a degree id agree with you, depending on if the owner knew how to train a dog..
However this pup you have bred that hasn't made the grade, should this be bred from?

It's none of my business whether the new owner wants to breed from a dog I've sold.
If the dog I sold was registered, then the new owner can register offspring from it, provided that they're ISDS members and that both sire and dam are registered, eye tested, correct fees paid etc etc. Otherwise they could breed non-registered pups, which would be equally suited for farm work and trialling although couldn't compete at National or International level unless ROM (Registered on Merit).
If I sell a dog that does really well then I hope it does get bred from. If I sell a dog that doesn't do so well then I hope it doesn't get bred from, but why would anyone want to breed from it anyway?
And if a dog does really badly then the chances are it won't be alive for long enough to pass on its genes. (Or it would be rehomed to a non-working (pet) situation or for agility or something like that).

 

[jimmy milnes]

It's none of my business whether the new owner wants to breed from a dog I've sold.
If the dog I sold was registered, then the new owner can register offspring from it, provided that they're ISDS members and that both sire and dam are registered, eye tested, correct fees paid etc etc. Otherwise they could breed non-registered pups, which would be equally suited for farm work and trialling although couldn't compete at National or International level unless ROM (Registered on Merit).
If I sell a dog that does really well then I hope it does get bred from. If I sell a dog that doesn't do so well then I hope it doesn't get bred from, but why would anyone want to breed from it anyway?
And if a dog does really badly then the chances are it won't be alive for long enough to pass on its genes. (Or it would be rehomed to a non-working (pet) situation or for agility or something like that).

Cancelled response, cant be bothere6
Jimmy.