Case gauge problem.

[kenbro]

I think you should read the instructions again, see attachment in post #6, the note at the bottom in UPPERCASE!

I’d bin the old brass and move across to the Lapua, or switch to full length sizing which is widely considered the thing to do now for accuracy, consistency and functionality.

Hi,
I’m familiar with the body die instructions and I’m also familiar with the manufacturer’s fear of LITIGATION.
As suggested by Ttocs in post #19 I will try annealing a few as they might have gone too long (Though I don’t think so) between anneals.
If that doesn’t work I will bin the PPU brass.
Thanks, Ken.

 

[palo]

I was given some 308 once fired ex military brass a while ago.
It must of been fired in a very big chamber as the case length at the shoulder was way too long.
I run it through my body die that was set up to bump the shoulder for a perfect fit in my rifle but the cases were still too long. It may have been brass spring back.
I did have a forster full length die that I adjusted and I was able to get them sized to spec.
If you can get your hands on a full length die I would try that first before binning the brass.

 

[drone]

I had this problem with 7.62x51 military brass in my BLR 81 which are noted for having CIP minimal chambers.
I used brass that I had previously just neck sized in my Ruger #1, caused me problems which I'll just mention for posterity, sometimes difficult extraction, sometimes impossible extraction.
I've been full length sizing but some cases still pinched at both the case head and the neck. It also flattened primers slightly which worried me no end as this was with start at loads.
Multiple runs through the FL resize (I don't know wtf bump is so I just use the dies) sorted the case head nip, annealed the necks and trimmed to size then after the case was loaded and crimped, removed the mandrel from the FL die and squeeze the round through et Voila - issue resolved.
I also polished the case heads around the extraction groove as difficult extraction caused metal deformation, FWIW all those cases have been scrapped now. GGG was the brand and I suspect the primer flattening was due to my over zealous reaming of the primer pocket crimp causing too much of a leade into the pocket with the primer spreading out to fill the space.
Eventually refreshed my inventory with Peterson SRP cases as I'm using N-150 mostly and they have been perfect.
I've hit my accuracy node about 2 grains up on start at loads and I get no pressure signs whatsoever.
I use a cartridge gauge which is really helpful but I also drop each loaded case into the chamber (without closing the bolt, Timothy) and if it needs ANY assistance other than gravity either in or out, I pull the bullet and start again on the basis that 5 minutes frustration at the loading bench is sweet FA compared to a missed opportunity in the field.

 

[kenbro]

I just annealed 5 cases, sized them in the body die and 1 out of 5 fits in the case gauge.
I won’t use the PPU brass again but will get (Though I don’t want one) a FL die and go through the process to check if that makes a difference.
Thanks for all replies, Ken.

 

[reiver]

I had this problem with 7.62x51 military brass in my BLR 81 which are noted for having CIP minimal chambers.
I used brass that I had previously just neck sized in my Ruger #1, caused me problems which I'll just mention for posterity, sometimes difficult extraction, sometimes impossible extraction.
I've been full length sizing but some cases still pinched at both the case head and the neck. It also flattened primers slightly which worried me no end as this was with start at loads.
Multiple runs through the FL resize (I don't know wtf bump is so I just use the dies) sorted the case head nip, annealed the necks and trimmed to size then after the case was loaded and crimped, removed the mandrel from the FL die and squeeze the round through et Voila - issue resolved.
I also polished the case heads around the extraction groove as difficult extraction caused metal deformation, FWIW all those cases have been scrapped now. GGG was the brand and I suspect the primer flattening was due to my over zealous reaming of the primer pocket crimp causing too much of a leade into the pocket with the primer spreading out to fill the space.
Eventually refreshed my inventory with Peterson SRP cases as I'm using N-150 mostly and they have been perfect.
I've hit my accuracy node about 2 grains up on start at loads and I get no pressure signs whatsoever.
I use a cartridge gauge which is really helpful but I also drop each loaded case into the chamber (without closing the bolt, Timothy) and if it needs ANY assistance other than gravity either in or out, I pull the bullet and start again on the basis that 5 minutes frustration at the loading bench is sweet FA compared to a missed opportunity in the field.

I had to used a small base die for resizing .308 in my BLR for reloaded brass back in the day .

 

[NP435]

I just annealed 5 cases, sized them in the body die and 1 out of 5 fits in the case gauge.
I won’t use the PPU brass again but will get (Though I don’t want one) a FL die and go through the process to check if that makes a difference.
Thanks for all replies, Ken.

I think you are on track by full length resizing, do you trim brass after sizing? Cases stretch in the die.

 

[drone]

Kenbro, try removing the mandrel from the neck sizer and run the loaded cases through that in the interim, It works for my 22 savage hi power as the brass is that thin that running it into a FL die causes the odd one or two to collapse, I have recovered them but even so they kink badly and that damn brass is difficult to get a hold of.
TBH I used a 22/250 neck size die I just picked up and it's magic. They need a good squeeze though.

 

[drone]

Reiver, bases were ok after sizing about 5 times and holding the press down for 5 seconds or so, you can check them with the cartridge gauge by entering the case into the gauge rim first, soon lets you know if it's oversize.
Browning remedy is to polish the chamber TBH I prefer not to remove metal as replacing it can be a bind.
Bugger all to do with the OP but internet responses are like politician's promises, you gotta weed the fertilizer out.

 

[kenbro]

I think you are on track by full length resizing, do you trim brass after sizing? Cases stretch in the die.

I don’t use an expander button when sizing.
Ken.

 

[MarinePMI]

@kenbro

Well, first things first. A case gauge is a gauge that is meant check that the case meets minimum case dimensions, to ensure reliable feeding in any CIP/SAAMI chamber (in particular, a semi-auto chamber).

Therefore, if you have fired it many times in your bolt action chamber, and your chamber is in anyway above the minimum, even FL resizing with a standard FL sizing die will not size the case enough to fit into a case gauge. You'd need a small base die to make the brass fit (if your chamber is above minimum in any dimension), since most FL sizing dies are not reamed to minimum specs at the base of the case.

This is the other point, case gauges can often give a false reading if the base it too wide. This is because the case gauge can't give a reading if the shoulder of the case never makes it into the gauge, because the base is too wide. I have seen a couple rifles blown up (AR's in particular) because someone was using a case gauge to adjust their non-SBD dies (and created excessive, gross headspace in conjunction with an already hot load), rather than using the rifle's chamber to tell them if the shoulder is being pushed back far enough (just insert an empty case into the rifle, and check that the bolt drops down with minimal or no resistance).

Rifle case gauges are used to ensure reliable feeding in semi-auto firearms (they assume a person is using a SBD). They are not intended to be used to adjust dies that are NOT small base dies.

Pistol cartridges are a whole other subject (roll sizing, etc.)...

Mark your brass with a Sharpie marker, and insert it into the gauge. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the brass will show a rub mark somewhere along the body. Meaning, your case isn't making it into the gauge far enough to determine if the shoulder has been bumped back enough.

 

[kenbro]

Kenbro, try removing the mandrel from the neck sizer and run the loaded cases through that in the interim, It works for my 22 savage hi power as the brass is that thin that running it into a FL die causes the odd one or two to collapse, I have recovered them but even so they kink badly and that damn brass is difficult to get a hold of.
TBH I used a 22/250 neck size die I just picked up and it's magic. They need a good squeeze though.

Hi, see post #10.
Thanks, Ken.

 

[kenbro]

@kenbro

Well, first things first. A case gauge is a gauge that is meant check that the case meets minimum case dimensions, to ensure reliable feeding in any CIP/SAAMI chamber (in particular, a semi-auto chamber).

Therefore, if you have fired it many times in your bolt action chamber, and your chamber is in anyway above the minimum, even FL resizing with a standard FL sizing die will not size the case enough to fit into a case gauge. You'd need a small base die to make the brass fit (if your chamber is above minimum in any dimension), since most FL sizing dies are not reamed to minimum specs at the base of the case.

This is the other point, case gauges can often give a false reading if the base it too wide. This is because the case gauge can't give a reading if the shoulder of the case never makes it into the gauge, because the base is too wide. I have seen a couple rifles blown up (AR's in particular) because someone was using a case gauge to adjust their non-SBD dies (and created excessive, gross headspace in conjunction with an already hot load), rather than using the rifle's chamber to tell them if the shoulder is being pushed back far enough (just insert an empty case into the rifle, and check that the bolt drops down with minimal or no resistance).

Rifle case gauges are used to ensure reliable feeding in semi-auto firearms (they assume a person is using a SBD). They are not intended to be used to adjust dies that are NOT small base dies.

Pistol cartridges are a whole other subject (roll sizing, etc.)...

Mark your brass with a Sharpie marker, and insert it into the gauge. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the brass will show a rub mark somewhere along the body. Meaning, your case isn't making it into the gauge far enough to determine if the shoulder has been bumped back enough.

Hi MPMI;
My cases slide easily into (And out again) the Wilson gauge and I can feel the shoulder coming into contact with the inside of the die.
The Wilson gauge measures Min and max headspace and also overall case length.(SAMMI Spec)
Thanks, Ken.
Ps. Some of these cases have only been used 4 or 5 times.
Can’t understand why I can’t make them fit with the equipment I have.

 

[drone]

That's not what I'm saying, load the case, seat the bullet, crimp if you have to then take the mandrel out of the neck size and give the neck with the bullet in it a big squeeze in the die and see if it makes a difference.
Pull the bolt and drop the finished cartridge into the chamber to see if it will completely enter under its own weight.
Works for me with my 22 hi power but I've not loaded 222 in 50 odd years and can't remember that much except I did it with a lee loader iirc and a hammer was part of the tools required, finesse wasn't.

 

[NP435]

Hi MPMI;
My cases slide easily into (And out again) the Wilson gauge and I can feel the shoulder coming into contact with the inside of the die.
The Wilson gauge measures Min and max headspace and also overall case length.(SAMMI Spec)
Thanks, Ken.
Ps. Some of these cases have only been used 4 or 5 times.
Can’t understand why I can’t make them fit with the equipment I have.

For the sake of my curiosity who built the body die? I am enjoying the thread its making me think.

 

[kenbro]

For the sake of my curiosity who built the body die? I am enjoying the thread its making me think.

Hi.

Ken.

 

[kenbro]

That's not what I'm saying, load the case, seat the bullet, crimp if you have to then take the mandrel out of the neck size and give the neck with the bullet in it a big squeeze in the die and see if it makes a difference.
Pull the bolt and drop the finished cartridge into the chamber to see if it will completely enter under its own weight.
Works for me with my 22 hi power but I've not loaded 222 in 50 odd years and can't remember that much except I did it with a lee loader iirc and a hammer was part of the tools required, finesse wasn't.

Hi Drone,
Yes I misunderstood what you said but pushing the loaded rounds back into a sizing die is not something I would contemplate doing.
Can’t see it having any bearing on my problem either.
Thanks for suggestion, Ken.

 

[webley701]

Hi Drone,
Yes I misunderstood what you said but pushing the loaded rounds back into a sizing die is not something I would contemplate doing.
Can’t see it having any bearing on my problem either.
Thanks for suggestion, Ken.

But you have done exactly that though in the past - i.e. sizing loaded rounds.

 

[kenbro]

But you have done exactly that though in the past - i.e. sizing loaded rounds.

Come on Mr. webley, thought you would know better than that!
There’s a huge difference between pushing a loaded round into a body die that doesn’t touch the outside of the neck, (Even with a bullet seated) and pushing a loaded round up into a sizing die that’s designed to reduce the neck diameter when there’s no bullet in there.
Jmo but I think that would seriously increase pressure when fired. .
Kb.
Ps. Drone even suggests a big push

 

[webley701]

Come on Mr. webley, thought you would know better than that!
There’s a huge difference between pushing a loaded round into a body die that doesn’t touch the outside of the neck, (Even with a bullet seated) and pushing a loaded round up into a sizing die that’s designed to reduce the neck diameter when there’s no bullet in there.
Jmo but I think that would seriously increase pressure when fired. .
Kb.
Ps. Drone even suggests a big push

Now didn’t you nearly came to grief when you got a live round stuck in a sizing die & had a little incident with the primer?

 

[kenbro]

Now didn’t you nearly came to grief when you got a live round stuck in a sizing die & had a little incident with the primer?

The worst that could have happened with that is a flame out of each end.
But I see, you are trying to digress because you made a mistake suggesting I’d pushed rounds into a sizing die.
Everyone except you knows there is a difference between a Body die and a Sizing die….thats why they have different names!
But some still get confused.
Cheers, Kb.
Ps. Do you still think it’s a good idea to push loaded rounds into a FL die?