Cast bullet hunting

[Greener Jim]

I spoke to my FEO and he states that hunting with cast bullets is fine in England as it is by definition a soft point.
He states that the onus would be on me to make sure that at predicted maximum range (and therefore lowest predicted impact velocity) that it would expand properly.

I'm fine with all this and I hope this doesn't turn into a legal discussion as that isn't my point.

Has anyone used hard cast bullets on deer sized game? Recovered the bullet? Expansion?

I would run a multitude of tests before trying on game, I just want to know if I'd be wasting my time.

For those interested, it'd be a .458 340gr with 22BHN and would be at about 1900-2000 fps at the muzzle.
This gives me a minimum impact velocity of 1550 at 100 yards, my max range

I have no doubt it would take game with authority but I want to make sure they expand so I'm safe and legal

 

[enfieldspares]

Here goes...

You have basically a number of approaches:

1) Cast bullet in normal alloy with a hollow point cast in to it using a specialist mould or the hollow pointer attachment on a Forster trimmer. Or of a proven design that kills with no need for the hollow pint.

2) The old time trick of putting a sheet of newspaper between the mould blocks about half an inch or so in width at the tip. Making effectively the old time split nose bullet.

Or high velocity:

3) Linotype. Hard to get but you can make a mix of lead and tin to get similar hardness. These don't expand that much. I have never shot them made from a hollow point mould.

4) Cast bullet in normal alloy but cast and paper patched. This requires a smooth mould with no grease grooves and a knowledge of the reason behind, and how to, paper patch. The best source is the book "Shooting the Paper Patched Bullet".

Have fun. 2) apparently delivers spectacular results far exceeding the little effort required to make them as such it requires only paper strips and a steady hand to place them in position.

 

[Southern]

You don't need hard cast, and you don't need that much velocity.
Shoot a softer bullet with a gas check, and get the velocity down around 1,800 fps.
Works in a .45-70, .444, .30-06, and .303. Mild recoil, accurate, and 100 yards is a snap.

 

[Greener Jim]

Thanks for the info enfieldspares. I won't be using a hollow point, just a flat nose. Point #2 sounds interesting, I've heard if it before but you've got me curious all over again!

Southern, I am more than happy to do that and I was planning on a BHN of 15 in the same design with gas check.
Then I spoke to the cast bullet maker and he said that for 1800fps I'd need Linotype.

I only need 1600fps to be nudging 2000ft-lbs so could probably go down to his 15bhn alloy for that but obviously I'd have a fair amount less energy.

 

[8x57]

How do you define expansion from a legal point of view Jim. We all know that nearly all bullets deform/expand to some extent on impact but at the velocities that you are talking about a .458 340grn bullet isn't exactly going to display the classic mushroom shape is it, not that it needs to.
A bullet of that diameter is going to do the job and it's initial diameter will probably be more than the expanded diameter of some .243win bullets after they have expanded.

I understand from reading elsewhere that cast bullets are quite popular in South Africa for meat hunting and do the job with few problems.

 

[Greener Jim]

That's my thinking is that it's going to be a big hole and the flat point will do spot of damage no matter what it's consistency.
I believe that a JSP expands in to out whereas a cast bullet just gets pushed back and gets wider as it does so.
So my plan would be to measure it's starting and finishing length and width to get an idea of the expansion.
If it expands to 0.5" then I'll be happy. That's the minimum I think I could justify as expanding.
I'm thinking that I'll fire it into a phone book infront if a couple of haybales to catch it.
Should give me an idea. I'd like a little more expansion in this test so that I know it'll expand the 0.5" on light game

 

[dodgyrog]

I have read up on this matter on a lot of forums in the USA and everyone says don't use hollow point boolits! They break up on impact and fail to penetrate.
I would suggest for .30 cal the 311291(blunt round nose) or 311041 (flat nose) both around 180gr are the ideal boolits to use as they impart their energy well without breaking up.
The Americans drive these boolits at around 1600fps or so and therefore need a gas check fitted.
To meet our regulations you will need to drive the boolit at sufficient velocity to make energy (and velocity in Scotland). I can drive a .308 at 2600fps from my target rifle (Parker Hale 1200TX) so the velocity requirement can be met. Ideally though I prefer 2000fps as a maximum and 1600fps for 100 to 200 yard ranges.
Boolit hardness should be around 15 Brinell (Lyman No. 2 alloy) - Most range scrap will meet this hardness - I use range lead actually cut back with 1/3rd pure lead from the scrappy. Get yourself a lead hardness tester and don't forget that lead age hardens so leave your sample at least a week before testing.
The use of cast boolits is a whole new aspect to shooting that is fascinating and enjoyable.

 

[dodgyrog]

I forgot to add that the reaction to shot is different and that animal may run a short way. Accurate boolit placement is essential and you MUST wait for the animal to expire before approaching it.

 

[Greener Jim]

Cheers Dodgyrog. Apparently I spoke to the new guy so he rang me, said he wasn't sure anymore and will get back t me.
Might have t go jacketed anyway!

 

[bewsher500]

can't see how they can say it won't deform/expand just because it is non-jacketed.

 

[8x57]

can't see how they can say it won't deform/expand just because it is non-jacketed.

+1

 

[dodgyrog]

Depends on their hardness - pure Linotype will drill a hole straight through I would expect. You'd need a hardness around 15 Brinell as stated and some tin in to help castability and to make the boolit hold together as it expands.

 

[Greener Jim]

We'll have t see what they say and I'll take it from there. I've just had a do with a lass on phone as I've received my FAC but they've missed off conditions and items I've asked for. She didn't seem t see why I was peeved that I'd have t send it back to them to amend.
So I can't do owt anyway as I don't trust the buggers to go "no we never said you could have it for deer"

 

[enfieldspares]

I'd again very much recommend looking at published sources about paper patched bullets. I really would. They do give you the best of all things. No messing about with linotype, just use normal alloy mix "as it comes" and no buying of gas checks either. And all can be done by hand with a wooded board and a small length of wood dowel.

 

[Ratten]

Out of interest on this expansion topic - is there a critical property of the actual act of expansion or is it simply the fact the round produces a resulting large hole? For example if you shot a .243 with 75% expansion on impact would that be of similar effect to a .416 with very limited expansion? I'm assume the bullet doesn't 'explode' to reach its expansion. Let's take it as read that there would be a tad more energy with the larger round, but it's the effect of the wound channel i'm interested in primarily

 

[Greener Jim]

The act of expansion leads to a greater amount of energy transfer. If a billet doesn't expand it leaves a smaller permanent and temporary wound channel.
Just for arbitrary numbers. Let's say you have two 30-06 rifles. One firing 200 grain solids and one 200 grain soft points. Both at exactly 3000 ft-lbs at the muzzle.
If the solids transfer 10% of it's energy it's hitting with a little more energy than a HMR. If the expanding one transfers 30% then it transfers more than a .17 Rem.
As previously mentioned, it would do this by leaving a larger wound channel so more area would be affected.
Solids have their place mind, but it's not lightweight think skinned game like deer.
Thats not to say that a hardcast bullet couldn't (and doesn't) kill deer cleaning the world over