Chasing dogs for deer.

[yellow belly]

Good tracking dogs should not go for a kill, it risks injury . However if ANY stalking dog does charge in , there should be no intent in that act or it goes into that " Grey area " the one when a judge gets involves and sets a legal precedent.
Deer can fight back with an antler and kicking out with what can be very damaging to the dog.
My first deer dog was a GWP It died best part of twenty years ago but i have since just kept Labs .
I did not know we cannot use tracking dogs in Scotland now , Its part of the night licence conditions - How the heck could that happen ?

Sorry I should of been clearer, a dog can be used to find a dead deer day or night. It can not be used to tackle a mobile injured deer... I.e hold or dispatch without breaking the law. It will take a court case to put it to the test but as it stands on paper now you are breaking the law on letting a dog chase a wounded beast.

All the pointers I know that work the deer are extremely efficient at holding and dispatch without damaging a carcass bar up at the neck or head.

 

[dunwater]

Good tracking dogs should not go for a kill, it risks injury . However if ANY stalking dog does charge in , there should be no intent in that act or it goes into that " Grey area " the one when a judge gets involves and sets a legal precedent.
Deer can fight back with an antler and kicking out with what can be very damaging to the dog.
My first deer dog was a GWP It died best part of twenty years ago but i have since just kept Labs .
I did not know we cannot use tracking dogs in Scotland now , Its part of the night licence conditions - How the heck could that happen ?

If I send my dog after a runner I want it to close with the animal and hold it until I get there or finish the job itself, not ask politely
“ would you mind hanging around until the boss gets here”?
A dog that won’t close and hold is useless with a mobile animal in cover.
You seem to base your ideas of what should happen on some fairly convoluted reasoning rather than on practical experience.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Sorry I should of been clearer, a dog can be used to find a dead deer day or night. It can not be used to tackle a mobile injured deer... I.e hold or dispatch without breaking the law. It will take a court case to put it to the test but as it stands on paper now you are breaking the law on letting a dog chase a wounded beast.

All the pointers I know that work the deer are extremely efficient at holding and dispatch without damaging a carcass bar up at the neck or head.

What's the difference between 'tracking' a wounded beast and 'chasing' a wounded beast - from a legal standpoint?

 

[Bowland blades]

Sorry I should of been clearer, a dog can be used to find a dead deer day or night. It can not be used to tackle a mobile injured deer... I.e hold or dispatch without breaking the law. It will take a court case to put it to the test but as it stands on paper now you are breaking the law on letting a dog chase a wounded beast.

All the pointers I know that work the deer are extremely efficient at holding and dispatch without damaging a carcass bar up at the neck or head.

If I send my dog after a runner I want it to close with the animal and hold it until I get there or finish the job itself, not ask politely
“ would you mind hanging around until the boss gets here”?
A dog that won’t close and hold is useless with a mobile animal in cover.
You seem to base your ideas of what should happen on some fairly convoluted reasoning rather than on practical experience.

Dogs that get stuck in as "std procedure" have big vet bills or worse. To make such a rule as " it must get in and finish the deer alone? " Well that means all those stalkers / trackers that utilise the likes of Tackels / Terriers etc do what ? I had one dog that was over keen and i do keep larger dogs myself but a full size stag has a fair potential to seriously injure or kill a large breed dog . Even a little Muntjac can inflict a lot of damage
Holding is / should be the primary goal not going in and finishing the job as a matter of course. Dancing around the ring with jabs rather than charging straight in with a right hander to to speak.

 

[dunwater]

Dogs that get stuck in as "std procedure" have big vet bills or worse. To make such a rule as " it must get in and finish the deer alone? " Well that means all those stalkers / trackers that utilise the likes of Tackels / Terriers etc do what ? I had one dog that was over keen and i do keep larger dogs myself but a full size stag has a fair potential to seriously injure or kill a large breed dog . Even a little Muntjac can inflict a lot of damage
Holding is / should be the primary goal not going in and finishing the job as a matter of course. Dancing around the ring with jabs rather than charging straight in with a right hander to to speak.

I think you’re very strong on theorising what should happen.
But not so hot on what actually happens or is required once the leash is slipped in earnest.

 

[Ratel]

Used to have a Border bitch that was perfect at the dance and jab. At seven months old she did rush in and grab a Roebuck by the nose until my wife could despatch it. Thank God she steadied down from that experience of being swung about.

 

[yellow belly]

What's the difference between 'tracking' a wounded beast and 'chasing' a wounded beast - from a legal standpoint?

Honestly not sure, my best guess and advice given is if on a lead is deemed 100% under control.

Dogs that get stuck in as "std procedure" have big vet bills or worse. To make such a rule as " it must get in and finish the deer alone? " Well that means all those stalkers / trackers that utilise the likes of Tackels / Terriers etc do what ? I had one dog that was over keen and i do keep larger dogs myself but a full size stag has a fair potential to seriously injure or kill a large breed dog . Even a little Muntjac can inflict a lot of damage
Holding is / should be the primary goal not going in and finishing the job as a matter of course. Dancing around the ring with jabs rather than charging straight in with a right hander to to speak.

Not looking for a dick swinging competition but my lad will deal with the biggest sika and red stags and will work in complete darkness to achieve what is asked of him, ****ing about in the dark in the middle of nowhere with them is no joking matter and the dog is ideal for this and if that means dispatch before i get there even better. If you train the dog right there isnt many if any bills. Other guys who I work with also have pointers that are also extremely competent too on the deer. The aim of the game is to put it out of its misery asap and untill November was encouraged to have a hard working dog. As for teckels and terriers fine for a dead deer but not much crack with dealing with a beast, I once worked a teckel next to my dog, useless on restocks, clearfells and Heather. It was barely 40 yards from truck when mine had crossed the restock and found the deer.

I must stress that since November's law change, I won't use my lad to dispatch or hold, before anyone starts thinking I'm flouting the law.

 

[SikaSeeker]

Honestly not sure, my best guess and advice given is if on a lead is deemed 100% under control.


Not looking for a dick swinging competition but my lad will deal with the biggest sika and red stags and will work in complete darkness to achieve what is asked of him, ****ing about in the dark in the middle of nowhere with them is no joking matter and the dog is ideal for this and if that means dispatch before i get there even better. If you train the dog right there isnt many if any bills. Other guys who I work with also have pointers that are also extremely competent too on the deer. The aim of the game is to put it out of its misery asap and untill November was encouraged to have a hard working dog. As for teckels and terriers fine for a dead deer but not much crack with dealing with a beast, I once worked a teckel next to my dog, useless on restocks, clearfells and Heather. It was barely 40 yards from truck when mine had crossed the restock and found the deer.

I must stress that since November's law change, I won't use my lad to dispatch or hold, before anyone starts thinking I'm flouting the law.

I think it’s more the dog’s natural technique more so then training on where he positions himself. A dog is better going in full pelt and dealing with it then dancing about. Very rearly had a dog injured by a deer, more so from fences and other environmental factors. But I’m sure you know all this. Few good kicks and dog knows where to stand.

 

[AGR]

I never witnessed stag hunting

Probably just as well or you might have voted Labour today!

 

[John Gryphon]

I once worked a teckel next to my dog, useless on restocks, clearfells and Heather. It was barely 40 yards from truck when mine had crossed the restock and found the deer.

Summed up correctly.

 

[Rake Aboot]

No place near that in my direct experience . Good thing its illegal and better still however is the orders once convicted, are being placed on the owners like no keeping of dogs or being in a vehicle with dogs in .

It would appear you are as ignorant about lurchers as you are about fac air rifles.

Complete numpty

 

[@theroedeerguy]

Sorry I should of been clearer, a dog can be used to find a dead deer day or night. It can not be used to tackle a mobile injured deer... I.e hold or dispatch without breaking the law. It will take a court case to put it to the test but as it stands on paper now you are breaking the law on letting a dog chase a wounded beast.

All the pointers I know that work the deer are extremely efficient at holding and dispatch without damaging a carcass bar up at the neck or head.

Sorry, but if you read the legislation the offence is not a dog taking hold of a deer.

A dog can take hold of an injured deer without breaking the law.

The law would be potentially broken if the dog thereafter killed said deer.

However, evidencing that said wounded deer had died as a result of the dogs actions alone and not as a result of the pre-existing gunshot injuries could be challenging to prove beyond reasonable doubt and is not as clear cut as a dog being found holding on to a deer which is dead.

A well trained deer dog should be trained to recall off a deer to allow a safe follow up shot when possible.

I would suggest that evidence of such training and ability of a deer dog would go some way towards demonstrating a dog which was off lead was still under control - as is the case with police dogs which are licensed conducting open ground searches off lead whilst demonstrating they are under control by responding to commands.

The exemption conditions for using a dog to track wounded deer are contained within section 6 of the act.

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Act 2023

www.legislation.gov.uk

It is my understanding that updated Best Practice Guidance is being compiled which will help provide additional support to stakeholders within the industry.

 

[Robinson]

The dog grabbing and tearing the deer after it's dead, is a given thing here. That is the reward for the dog, together with some bits of the liver and heart after it's gutted. It might look nasty, like the roe deer is still alive, when a powerful Dachs will do its best to kill that roe one more time. I have never experienced that they manage to tear it open, but we will pull them off after a while, when they have had their fun.

 

[yellow belly]

Sorry, but if you read the legislation the offence is not a dog taking hold of a deer.

A dog can take hold of an injured deer without breaking the law.

The law would be potentially broken if the dog thereafter killed said deer.

However, evidencing that said wounded deer had died as a result of the dogs actions alone and not as a result of the pre-existing gunshot injuries could be challenging to prove beyond reasonable doubt and is not as clear cut as a dog being found holding on to a deer which is dead.

A well trained deer dog should be trained to recall off a deer to allow a safe follow up shot when possible.

I would suggest that evidence of such training and ability of a deer dog would go some way towards demonstrating a dog which was off lead was still under control - as is the case with police dogs which are licensed conducting open ground searches off lead whilst demonstrating they are under control by responding to commands.

The exemption conditions for using a dog to track wounded deer are contained within section 6 of the act.

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Act 2023

www.legislation.gov.uk

It is my understanding that updated Best Practice Guidance is being compiled which will help provide additional support to stakeholders within the industry.

I agree with what you say, but 6.2.f is where the problem lays. What if you can't get to your dog to get it to release for dispatch and it kills the beast and Karen is out with her phone filming it and then reports you? I can't see the judge caring your dog will release when asked if it was holding its trachea shut when it did die regardless of a bullet wound.

I belive best practice is being rewritten. But given one of the stakeholders is adamant that there policy is not out of line of sight and not to touch a deer for fear of public perception, along with legal action against their employees and bringin them into disrepute (most likely from legal advisers) i cant see it being written with common sence or getting them to bend the ear of government to allow a exemption for a dog to dispatch on follow ups for welfare reasons.

It's for each individual to follow the law, how they interpret it but also hoping the judge agrees with them is a risk I wouldn't like to take!

 

[VSS]

It's for each individual to follow the law, how they interpret it but also hoping the judge agrees with them is a risk I wouldn't like to take!

But that's what we all do, every day of our lives!
How can you say it's a risk you wouldn't like to take? You must be afraid to get out of bed in the mornings!

 

[SikaSeeker]

If I was able to call my dog off a wounded deer, I’d question the dog and probably wouldn’t trust it.

 

[John Gryphon]

You must be afraid to get out of bed in the mornings!

Some are afraid to get into bed, after seeing their wives i see why lol.

If I was able to call my dog off a wounded deer

Its termed 'control' EG control of a good pig dog will catch multiple pigs out of a mob after owner arrives at first caught pig then commands dog to release and "get him" (another) A lot of dogs do rather the bird in the hand pig but soon learn.
My young dog wants to have a chew on a dead deer but an authoritative AAH AAH lets him know to stop the act or that there maybe a fern stalk whacked across his nose.

 

[SikaSeeker]

Some are afraid to get into bed, after seeing their wives i see why lol.

Its termed 'control' EG control of a good pig dog will catch multiple pigs out of a mob after owner arrives at first caught pig then commands dog to release and "get him" (another) A lot of dogs do rather the bird in the hand pig but soon learn.
My young dog wants to have a chew on a dead deer but an authoritative AAH AAH lets him know to stop the act or that there maybe a fern stalk whacked across his nose.

A dead deer is different to a living deer.

 

[John Gryphon]

A dead deer is different to a living deer.

I'm not gonna say on an open forum that at times things are different lol

 

[KimE]

Most dogs in Sweden are breed to run in the track of the animal ,bail it or point, its illegal to have a dog taking an unijured animal. Most of them have a problem to to hold or kill a wounded deer but if you do have a dog who are happy to run after a wounded animal and kill it its legal. We had a doghandler who has dogs who usually killed wounded deer or pigs perfect when you have deer walking a bit to fast for humans to track it but his dogs could take small pigs if them made the misstake to stand bail, not fun at all.