Chronic Wasting Disease

[Buchan]

‘The role of OPs has been largely discounted’

Really?

Wonder why it is that the spinal column is no longer left in the food chain, and why meat sold in the U.K. is from cattle which have only been dosed with OP just the once; the shepherds who used to use OP to dip sheep might have their view on your statement too, one might well imagine.

Never been a recorded case of BSE in organically reared cattle either.

Sweetening ground with lime also inhibits copper uptake, which is partly why copper rich mineral blocks were such a boon for deer in areas where the land had been ‘improved’ for provision of better grazing on some of the Estates I have dealt with.

I met and discussed matters of this topic with the man (a professor) who developed the market leading mineral block used in Europe; his buddy ‘coincidentally’ shot the then world record roe buck whilst they were developing testing his blocks on his hunting area.

Chromium at 2ppm is also more beneficial than its absence, although EU legislation has banned its inclusion. That said, a combination of trace elemental compounds at very specific levels make all the difference to overall health to both lactating and pregnant females, and the improvement in overall health is all (unsurprisingly) all the more marked in areas of trace element deficiency.

Most mineral blocks are a waste of time.
Lime and copper - not sure on that, doesn't really make chemical sense and I am not aware of it for a cause of copper deficiency
The OP role - all the evidence I have read is that they have no role. TSEs are due to mis-folded prion proteins, they occur naturally and are infectious.

 

[Freeforester]

Where does that bit of info come from, please? I wasn't aware of it, and as a cattle keeper it's the sort of thing I ought to know. I'd like to read up on it, and bring myself up-to-date.
I tried googling "Youngs Poron 20", one of the products that has been used as an insecticide on cattle and which I believe contains op, just to see if there had been any change in authorisation for it's use, but the results of my search weren't what I was expecting, and were "interesting" to say the least.
Now I'm going to delete my search history

If you’re old enough to remember the whole BSE saga (the costliest event to befall this country since WW2) and we’re paying attention to what was being said and done, you may recall the furore surrounding the inclusion of the spinal cord in certain processed meat products when it was suspected that the same was where the OP pour-on was initially absorbed by the dosed animal.

The correlation at the time of dosage per kg live body weight administered being known to be proportional to the number of cases in the respective countries where the dosage was highest (UK & Eire leading that particular table, on our respective governments’ advice at that time) did not go unnoticed, not least by US and EU authorities (several other member states within the EU had similar problems, others just covered it up, and both directed the attention of their journalists and laid blame wholly and solely toward British beef). Testing revealed the persistence of the OP neurotoxin within the spinal cord, and in short order it was banned from being used in burgers, etc or indeed any food substance intended for human consumption.

The what, but not the full explanation as to the why:

Contamination of beef carcasses by spinal cord tissue during splitting

In 1989/90, the use of specified bovine offal (SBO) in human food was banned in the UK. Spinal cord, an SBO material, is now removed from beef carcass…

www.sciencedirect.com

As before: the classic symptom/result of organophosphate intoxication/overdosage in any mammal is spongiform encephalopathy, the pathway of the copper molecule uptake being prevented and thereafter its replacement by molybdenum molecule, the latter causing the malfunction of the prions, leading to the development of the illness.

 

[Freeforester]

Most mineral blocks are a waste of time.
Lime and copper - not sure on that, doesn't really make chemical sense and I am not aware of it for a cause of copper deficiency
The OP role - all the evidence I have read is that they have no role. TSEs are due to mis-folded prion proteins, they occur naturally and are infectious.

Best explain the redundancy of trace elements to all those farmers offering them to their livestock, then. Whilst it may well be true to suggest that ‘most mineral blocks are a waste of time’ this is because if you look carefully at the blurb, ‘most’ indicate that their product is made from rock salt and their mineral content are estimates, rather than eg a block formed of vacuum salt and with the precise trace elements compounds incorporated into their manufacture to ISO standard. Most, but by no means ALL.

I’ve already done my homework on the matter, lime inhibits uptake of copper, best you look into it a little more. Similarly with the effect/mechanism of action of organophosphate. It is, again, true that Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathies are due to misfolded prion proteins, this however suggests nothing as to the role of organophosphate overdosage in producing spongiform encephalopathy is either incorrect or false.

 

[VSS]

If you’re old enough to remember the whole BSE saga (the costliest event to befall this country since WW2) and we’re paying attention to what was being said and done, you may recall the furore surrounding the inclusion of the spinal cord in certain processed meat products when it was suspected that the same was where the OP pour-on was initially absorbed by the dosed animal.

The correlation at the time of dosage per kg live body weight administered being known to be proportional to the number of cases in the respective countries where the dosage was highest (UK & Eire leading that particular table, on our respective governments’ advice at that time) did not go unnoticed, not least by US and EU authorities (several other member states within the EU had similar problems, others just covered it up, and both directed the attention of their journalists and laid blame wholly and solely toward British beef). Testing revealed the persistence of the OP neurotoxin within the spinal cord, and in short order it was banned from being used in burgers, etc or indeed any food substance intended for human consumption.

The what, but not the full explanation as to the why:

Contamination of beef carcasses by spinal cord tissue during splitting

In 1989/90, the use of specified bovine offal (SBO) in human food was banned in the UK. Spinal cord, an SBO material, is now removed from beef carcass…

www.sciencedirect.com

As before: the classic symptom/result of organophosphate intoxication/overdosage in any mammal is spongiform encephalopathy, the pathway of the copper molecule uptake being prevented and thereafter its replacement by molybdenum molecule, the latter causing the malfunction of the prions, leading to the development of the illness.

Yes, I'm aware of all that. I was referring specifically to your statement that cattle destined for human consumption can only be treated once in their lifetime with an OP product. I am not aware of that restriction, but obviously I should be, so I was wondering what was the source of your info?

 

[Freeforester]

Best speak with your local DEFRA Tim,

Google Search

A little of the late Purdy’s research. He was concerned with how it could be that so many cattle went down with BSE after the contaminated feedstuffs were withdrawn from sale:

The UK epidemic of BSE: Slow virus or chronic pesticide-initiated modification of the prion protein? Part 2: An epidemiological perspective

This paper elucidates the flaws in the official hypothesis that bovine spongioform encephalopathy originated from alterations in the way that scrapie-…

www.sciencedirect.com

Apropos ‘dippers flu’:

‘Dippers' flu’ and its relationship to PON1 polymorphisms | Occupational & Environmental Medicine

 

[Buchan]

"the classic symptom/result of organophosphate intoxication/overdosage in any mammal is spongiform encephalopathy" - OPs and OCl interfere with chemical neurotransmitters - usually acetyl choline - from synapses and while symptomatically there may be similarities, the pathology is not the same pattern of brain damage as spongioform encephalopathies.

"Best explain the redundancy of trace elements to all those farmers offering them to their livestock, then" - I did, frequently. if one has a deficency, blocks are not a great way to deal with it.

"the pathway of the copper molecule uptake being prevented and thereafter its replacement by molybdenum molecule, the latter causing the malfunction of the prions, leading to the development of the illness" - the role of copper in prions is uncertain, based on my reading of recent literature. The prions may well have a role in coper and zinc metabolism, but this is uncertain. I've found nothing credible about Molybdenum.

If you have data on the copper and lime, I'd be interested.

 

[Freeforester]

Molybdenum becomes more available to plants as soil pH increases.

Uptake of molybdenum, where available in the absence of copper is a common occurrence in areas where sour ground has been well limed, and/or organophosphate pesticides have been applied, the resulting deficiency in copper leading to uptake of molybdenum is broadly the same from the perspective of the domestic animal).

Application of lime at 3T/a (7t/Ha) can increase ph levels above 6.2, beyond which copper availability is locked out and molybdenum, where available, uptake instead increased.

Grassland - New Lime Factsheet - The Facts on Applying Lime - Teagasc | Agriculture and Food Development Authority

Lime is most definitely the forgotten fertiliser on Irish farms. We are currently only applying 50% of our national lime requirements. In addition 80 to 85% of our soils are testing sub-optimal for major nutrients such as soil pH, P & K. Mark Plunkett, Teagasc Johnstown Castle has more information.

www.teagasc.ie

Whilst I would agree that use of copper bolus are a more effective means of administering the nutrient to domestic stock, this option is not possible for wild deer; a mineral block with high (25ppm) copper incorporated along with a mix of other trace elements became the European number 1 best seller following rigorous evaluation by the German Hunting Association, which, as you suggest, found that many of the competitor products were of very limited value.

An example: One skeptical deer park manager with 3 deer parks in the Trent valley under his control suffered losses of up to 40 red deer annually from swayback; he took blocks from my stand at my exhortation to try and having little to lose apart from a) the effort to carry them to the truck and b) his skepticism, he duly took them back to his parks and set them out. His losses ceased shortly thereafter, and suitably impressed/convinced, he ordered his first pallet. Later that same year he rang and told me of the transformation of his stock, with yearling staggies throwing royal heads, and asked to become agent for his region. Quite a turnaround.

It is acknowleged by among others the Salt Institute of America that several States over there are deficient in copper, and they also describe States with high levels of molybdenum. They also acknowledge and describe the ratio of copper to molybdenum, which they further state ‘ is the most important dietery factor affecting copper toxicity in sheep’, but go on to say that, and as you have made clear, ‘the exact mechanism by which molybdenum prevents copper toxicity is poorly understood’.



Happy to advise that the product mentioned was thoroughly er, ‘vetted’ by some of the brighter buttons of the realm, and have been used for some years on the King’s own estate. His deer were not the only ones to feel their benefit, I might add.