My working Cockers haven't got a brain.
'Cocker Rage' Any solutions ?
- Thread starter Longstrider
- Start date
Hi,
I have trained all the spaniel breeds over many years, I have a new cocker puppy, who is just starting her training. To add to the discussion from a positive point of view.
1, the syndrome aludded to above was predominantly found to manifest itself at night.
1a, is this your findings?
2, the syndrome was also found to be in solid Golden and Solid Black DOGS.
2a, what sex and colour is yours?
3, does the syndrome have a pattern?
3a, After a walk, food, time of day etc...?
If you PM me I would discuss via phone with you. I may have some ideas to help. I’m not a great fan of greedy vets and their potions.
RS
I have trained all the spaniel breeds over many years, I have a new cocker puppy, who is just starting her training. To add to the discussion from a positive point of view.
1, the syndrome aludded to above was predominantly found to manifest itself at night.
1a, is this your findings?
2, the syndrome was also found to be in solid Golden and Solid Black DOGS.
2a, what sex and colour is yours?
3, does the syndrome have a pattern?
3a, After a walk, food, time of day etc...?
If you PM me I would discuss via phone with you. I may have some ideas to help. I’m not a great fan of greedy vets and their potions.
RS
Sorry to hear about this, it's a tough one.
Cocker rage was a problem in the late 80s early 90s exactly as you describe. No warning and a, for want of a better word, psychotic animal. Uncontrollable, dangerous, biting anything with no fear and really fast. All were PTS as the animal could not be trusted. Some we put down wagging and happy, others where very dangerous indeed.
There is now a thought that this is some sort of epilepsy - hence the drugs. However, my advice would be still PTS I'm afraid. You'll never know when he might turn and the injuries could be awful, especially if young children are around.
It was felt to be genetic, possible the red, and the condition just vanished. Its reappearance seems to have co-incided with the fad for cocker crosses
Flea preps/diet etc are not part of the problem.
Cocker rage was a problem in the late 80s early 90s exactly as you describe. No warning and a, for want of a better word, psychotic animal. Uncontrollable, dangerous, biting anything with no fear and really fast. All were PTS as the animal could not be trusted. Some we put down wagging and happy, others where very dangerous indeed.
There is now a thought that this is some sort of epilepsy - hence the drugs. However, my advice would be still PTS I'm afraid. You'll never know when he might turn and the injuries could be awful, especially if young children are around.
It was felt to be genetic, possible the red, and the condition just vanished. Its reappearance seems to have co-incided with the fad for cocker crosses
Flea preps/diet etc are not part of the problem.
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
Thats very intresting (as usual buchan)
I thought when cross breeding the general opinon was u don't get the same inherited problems of the parent breeds, coupled with hybrid vigour was always the main reasons for crossing.
Intresting to hear that it has made a reoccurance with the crosses.
I don't suppose u know if these affected cross/mongral dogs were 1st cross or 2nd cross?
I have read somewhere years ago that when u get into 2nd gen crosses the health of dogs drops dramatically and they tend to have more problems than pure bred dogs do
Ps I don't know if any/many of the posters on here have been on the MyKC site ran by the KC, basicially it lists all ur dogs but u can also search other dogs pedigrees and dogs related to yours, any health conditons they report (optional) + any health tests they've had or any wins at FT/show.
If vets or owners were forced to enter things like this under there dogs name it would mean others can see wots going on someone who owneda littermate at other end of the country would never know, not a problem if only 1 out of litter but if far more had it its a far bigger issue) and begin to see any patterns.
Are 1 or 2 stud dogs throwing certain diseases or heriditiry conditions. Would mean responsible breeders could make far mor einfromed choices over future litters and help to wipe out some diseases without the need for genetic testing.
Some of the continetal breeders are far more clued up on the genetics of UK lines and wot famous stud dogs are throwig wot
I thought when cross breeding the general opinon was u don't get the same inherited problems of the parent breeds, coupled with hybrid vigour was always the main reasons for crossing.
Intresting to hear that it has made a reoccurance with the crosses.
I don't suppose u know if these affected cross/mongral dogs were 1st cross or 2nd cross?
I have read somewhere years ago that when u get into 2nd gen crosses the health of dogs drops dramatically and they tend to have more problems than pure bred dogs do
Ps I don't know if any/many of the posters on here have been on the MyKC site ran by the KC, basicially it lists all ur dogs but u can also search other dogs pedigrees and dogs related to yours, any health conditons they report (optional) + any health tests they've had or any wins at FT/show.
If vets or owners were forced to enter things like this under there dogs name it would mean others can see wots going on someone who owneda littermate at other end of the country would never know, not a problem if only 1 out of litter but if far more had it its a far bigger issue) and begin to see any patterns.
Are 1 or 2 stud dogs throwing certain diseases or heriditiry conditions. Would mean responsible breeders could make far mor einfromed choices over future litters and help to wipe out some diseases without the need for genetic testing.
Some of the continetal breeders are far more clued up on the genetics of UK lines and wot famous stud dogs are throwig wot
Country boy dream on.
The reason I say that it’s called money! The cash cow would dry up. A long time ago I had golden retriever bought from supposed good working stock. At 9 months the dog was racked with pain. The vet X-ray showed hip displasia. I contacted the breeder and got the bog off. I wasn’t after my money back i just wanted them not to breed again from that mating. I wrote to the KC and heyho never got a reply.
I bought a Spaniel pup for a friend the mating was a FTCh X FTCh that turned out to have entropia. I phoned the breeder (ex friend) and got the bog off. It’s turned out he knew the bitch had entropia via a vet at the game fair. Cynical YES. As an aside all the vets involved wanted fortunes in operations.
The mad cocker syndrome I’ve researched a long time ago suggest it comes from pure breeds of show solid colours. The show gene pool was so tight, nature said stop or this is what you’ll get. Then working cockers up until 20 - 30 years the gene pool was very tight. Springers were mated to cockers, then 3rd generation matings we’re registered as pure cockers. To get back to a traditional looking cocker it became apparent theses cockers, who were winning trials and being bred from looked more like springers, show cocker solid colours were used. Nature has a habit of biting us in the bum when we mess with her.
Just my two peneth.
RS
The reason I say that it’s called money! The cash cow would dry up. A long time ago I had golden retriever bought from supposed good working stock. At 9 months the dog was racked with pain. The vet X-ray showed hip displasia. I contacted the breeder and got the bog off. I wasn’t after my money back i just wanted them not to breed again from that mating. I wrote to the KC and heyho never got a reply.
I bought a Spaniel pup for a friend the mating was a FTCh X FTCh that turned out to have entropia. I phoned the breeder (ex friend) and got the bog off. It’s turned out he knew the bitch had entropia via a vet at the game fair. Cynical YES. As an aside all the vets involved wanted fortunes in operations.
The mad cocker syndrome I’ve researched a long time ago suggest it comes from pure breeds of show solid colours. The show gene pool was so tight, nature said stop or this is what you’ll get. Then working cockers up until 20 - 30 years the gene pool was very tight. Springers were mated to cockers, then 3rd generation matings we’re registered as pure cockers. To get back to a traditional looking cocker it became apparent theses cockers, who were winning trials and being bred from looked more like springers, show cocker solid colours were used. Nature has a habit of biting us in the bum when we mess with her.
Just my two peneth.
RS
Countrryboy - yes, you'd think hybridisation would remove or couter these genes. It could be co-incidence, but all the cases I've heard or dealt with of so far have been cocker crosses. Breeding for a silly name is as daft as breeding for very floppy ears.
JTO, the old boy was he called Malcolm a grouse keeper from up north? If so he also championed the originality of Crufts and how it became into being, which is a far cry from what it is today! Gundog breeds that couldn’t find a bowl of green tripe in their own kennels, let alone a jack snipe or take a line on a rabbit! One of the reasons for this thread of how gundog breeds have been messed with.
Rant over I need a lie down I’m old!
RS
Rant over I need a lie down I’m old!
RS
No, Ken Foot, who ran an agricultural merchants in Dorchester.
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
Totally agree with u rifle shot, u may be cynical but ur unfortunately correct. Money has riuned both FT and in turn FT breeding has ruined many working breeds (breeding for style, size, pace, colour, above other more inportant attributes)
Do'nt want to derail this thread into the perils/evils of modern breeding which would be easy to do.
Was an article inST a few years ago now bout how inbred modern FT lines of cockers can be, the top 3 studs were al sitting at a coeffict of 30 odd % (and to make matters worse all related to each other) and they were sireing massive ammount of pups every year.
would be an absolute disater if a top stud dog was carryig a recessive gene for something likes this as would be right throu all the FT lines before u knew it.
Look wot happened with the GWP in this country and epilepsy, reckon it can all be traced back to 1 top dog who sired all the top bitchs+ many others
Cheers Buchan, would be intresting to know iif was a 1st or 2nd gen cross, chances are a 1st thou to keep the stupid name
Mibbee i'm in the minority but if i ever bred pups that had any heriditory health issues i'd want to know and try and figure out wots going on. In the past when most pups were bred and sold locally any health problems soon made their way back vai the jungle drums of different shoot howf's, now with pups sold nationwide u'd never ever hear.
Why in an ideal world MyKC could b a great tool for dog/breed health
Do'nt want to derail this thread into the perils/evils of modern breeding which would be easy to do.
Was an article inST a few years ago now bout how inbred modern FT lines of cockers can be, the top 3 studs were al sitting at a coeffict of 30 odd % (and to make matters worse all related to each other) and they were sireing massive ammount of pups every year.
would be an absolute disater if a top stud dog was carryig a recessive gene for something likes this as would be right throu all the FT lines before u knew it.
Look wot happened with the GWP in this country and epilepsy, reckon it can all be traced back to 1 top dog who sired all the top bitchs+ many others
Cheers Buchan, would be intresting to know iif was a 1st or 2nd gen cross, chances are a 1st thou to keep the stupid name
Mibbee i'm in the minority but if i ever bred pups that had any heriditory health issues i'd want to know and try and figure out wots going on. In the past when most pups were bred and sold locally any health problems soon made their way back vai the jungle drums of different shoot howf's, now with pups sold nationwide u'd never ever hear.
Why in an ideal world MyKC could b a great tool for dog/breed health
