Copper bullets - the limitations

[1894]

Or are they talking shite?

They are

 

[User00040]

The ultra-boutique super bullets don't mean squat if they only come in 'roll your own form', as no organisation/agency is going to touch them with a bargepole. Contracts and leases are now routinely using the phrase 'non-lead factory ammo only'.

So far, I believe Barnes have the only non-lead/copper bullets to be loaded across different manufacturers, with Barnes loading their own Vor-Tx ammo as well as Sako offering it as the 'Powerhead II'.

Fox offer a factory loading although I am unsure if anyone else uses their projectiles. Sako are now making their own 'Powerhead Blade' but I have yet to see any in person or listed online in the UK. I think Norma have their own fancy bullet too as well as RWS.

Ammo price does not really matter too much if the taxpayer is paying or if an individual is buying just a few boxes a year. Talk to someone who buys ten or more boxes at a time and ask them how much they love their 'non-lead'...

All I will say is, if operating under a staunch 'non-lead' stance (whether self-imposed or volountary) I hope you own a dog that can track wounded deer, or at least make sure that you can adequately compensate the deer recovery trackers that get callouts. It's not a matter of if, but when.

Either that, or you can be safe and only choose to shoot a handful (if any) deer in a nicely curated environment like a fenced deer park.

 

[shbangsteve]

For those who haven't seen it, there are some videos on the fieldtester/fieldsports channel regarding copper bullets. They are also doing a large field trial of using the copper bullets on deer. They hope to have over 100 animals killed and should have the results in around three weeks.

 

[Alantoo]

The ultra-boutique super bullets don't mean squat if they only come in 'roll your own form', as no organisation/agency is going to touch them with a bargepole.

Is that for insurance reasons against the manufacturer/loader of the ammunition?

I don’t know if there is any reason why the insurance cover would be any different if you took your ultra-boutique super bullets to HPS to load for you. They currently load the Fox factory offerings so presumably any quality and liability issues would be covered similarly for their personal loading service as for their commercial contracts?

Alan

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

Just a thought, having just looked at the Peregrine website.

I should say that, whilst following this topic with interest, I have no experience with lead-alternative bullets. I shoot whatever my guide gives me, in their estate rifle. So far everything from .243 with 70 grain vermin ammo (I declined a shot at a big Norfolk Red stag that outing, though the guide said it would be fine for a neck or head shot). through 308, 270 and 30-06. Actually I liked the 30-06 the best, it was loaded with A-max (this was back in the days of the A-Max/V-Max controversy and no posting of "expanding" projectiles, thankfully long gone) Worked a treat on Muntjac, Roe and Fallow at woodland ranges from 20 to 160 yards, lasered. The 308 seemed equally as good using Nosler BT, but I've only used it twice.

So I know very little really, and have little experience to relate even of lead, having shot a variety but only very few of each. I simply have to trust my guides to have chosen something they think suitable for their grounds, of which they should have vastly more knowledge than me. The chap taking me out after reds with a .243 foxing cartridge was I hope the exception.

Playing devil's advocate, ISTM that their VLR 4 might not actually be England/Wales deer legal. Where a hollow point or soft point is required. Looking at it I see neither. Just the hard tough brass "plunger initiator" sticking out of the end. I think that is rather different from the plastic tip of a "ballistic tip" type of bullet, where the plastic is mainly there to improve the aerodynamics of an otherwise standard hollow point design. Secondarily to participate in the expansion of the (lead) hollow point, but to what extent I am unsure.

This is not a hollow point, to my understanding, at least not at the time it exits the rifle muzzle. It is a solid construction of copper and brass. The expansion mechanism, at least the first part, is different. Neither is it a soft point.

Is this something that would greatly concern me, well perhaps not, as long as it does work effectively.

I'd like to see a cross section of one, showing how it is supposed to work. I am guessing that the initiator plunger part is pressed into the the hollow point of something like a Barnes TSX, pre-scored internally for triple petal formation. Perhaps it is conical, so that as it is hammered in on impact it wedges out the petals, thereby pulling them apart along the score lines, initiating the rest of the expansion by the usual mechanisms. If so, I see that there might need to be an airspace behind the penetrator to give it room to move back into the bullet. I wouldn't say that necessarily made it a hollowpoint.

As to any "air pocket dampening effect of the brass plunger during nose expansion as strong bone structures are encountered." , well that rather sounds like marketing noise to me. That air pocket isn't going to be doing much dampening to something that could be travelling at Mach 2.76 when it strikes. I think they might be suggesting that if it strikes bone, then initiation will be delayed by this supposed dampening effect so that penetration of the bone will be better, before the bullet starts to mushroom significantly. This seems totally counterintuitive to me. I'd rather think that the air pocket is there as a necessary part of the design, and not make it out to be anything more.

This is all pure guesswork by me, only based on what Peregrine say on their website. If I have got any of this right then I can see how this initiator could work by initially forcing open the petals a little and breaking them along the internal score lines. In a controlled manner. Also substituting for a plastic "ballistic tip" to keep the aerodynamics efficient. No concerns about a plastic tip softening/deforming from heat in flight at high velocities either.

But in lightly built game, when it might penetrate very little soft flesh, or even mostly just lung tissue filled with air, if they are full at the time, might it sometimes just pencil through them, or at least not start to expand much before it exits, having only passed through a relatively short distance of flesh, even mostly air ?

In these scenarios it might be best to aim to hit bone, i.e. the shoulder.

Could it really be a "one bullet does everything" solution for any UK deer species ? Woodland to the Scottish hill ? At any range/impact velocity ? Any shot placement choice ? Seems rather improbable to me.

As Peregrine say, they designed it for "long range very accurate plains-game hunting". If it also works well in other scenarios more typical in England/Wales, then that would be great. But it's early days before any credible reports come back from users.

To reiterate, this is all just speculation on my part, read very little into it. What I do think is that there is a bright future for non-lead bullets ahead, with continuing development and innovation. And it seems to me that much of the innovation is being lead by the small "boutique" manufacturers. The big boys can't be so fast on their feet, and are heavily invested in production machinery that may be difficult to re-purpose for more innovative engineered things.

I have attached a video from a few years ago, it's in Afrikaans, however the interesting feature is more the model showcased on the table to the right hand side, as far as my untrained eye can see we have a hollow point plugged by their brass tip, similar to how the Barnes TTSX has the cavity covered by the polymer tip. I would therefore say as there is an air pocket, that would make it legal as there is some form of hollow cavity to allow it to expand (I personally would say that categorised the same as a hollowpoint), regardless of if the tip may help it expand, if you see what I mean?

In any case, I am not claiming to know the answer here, I doubt anyone will dig that deep into the law as to say you aren't using a legal bullet as it is designed to expand reliably and consistently, if anyone legally trained wishes to pitch in with regards to this then I would be interested to hear!
I just thought it may be of interest for you to see a cross section of the peregrines as you mentioned?

Hope this is of interest,

Ben

 

[Acm]

Am I the only stalker on the SD who doesn’t need to shoot out past 300m? Admittedly I’m not a professional stalker, but I do shoot around a hundred a year. I’ll be sad to lose lead bullets but I am sure we can all get used to the lead free stuff.

 

[Acm]

The ultra-boutique super bullets don't mean squat if they only come in 'roll your own form', as no organisation/agency is going to touch them with a bargepole. Contracts and leases are now routinely using the phrase 'non-lead factory ammo only'.

So far, I believe Barnes have the only non-lead/copper bullets to be loaded across different manufacturers, with Barnes loading their own Vor-Tx ammo as well as Sako offering it as the 'Powerhead II'.

Fox offer a factory loading although I am unsure if anyone else uses their projectiles. Sako are now making their own 'Powerhead Blade' but I have yet to see any in person or listed online in the UK. I think Norma have their own fancy bullet too as well as RWS.

Ammo price does not really matter too much if the taxpayer is paying or if an individual is buying just a few boxes a year. Talk to someone who buys ten or more boxes at a time and ask them how much they love their 'non-lead'...

All I will say is, if operating under a staunch 'non-lead' stance (whether self-imposed or volountary) I hope you own a dog that can track wounded deer, or at least make sure that you can adequately compensate the deer recovery trackers that get callouts. It's not a matter of if, but when.

Either that, or you can be safe and only choose to shoot a handful (if any) deer in a nicely curated environment like a fenced deer park.

The FC are using Fox bullets a fair bit. And quite a lot of Barnes too I think.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

To the OP
Your thought process is not unique to monolithic non-lead bullets.

Manufacturers have been designing bullets for differing terminal impacts on differing density and size of game for decades.
SST designed for reliable expansion on American planes game beyond 3 to 400 yards
Swift Scirroco/Nosler Partition - Designed to hold together and maintain at least 2/3 of their original mass and marketed towards those shooting thicker skin and medium-sized game penetration is required at all ranges.
VMax-designed for maximum frangibility.
Anything with the world “bond” in the title - designed to hold together under.

The cup and core design has a wide range of products to cater to anything from short range rabbit to rhino, long range deer to dingo.
You can’t compare bullets on material alone.

Fox bullets expand reliably down to 2000fps
I have tested them.
They are designed with one purpose in mind. Game.
Shot at terminal velocity associated with ranges below 300yds.
BC is largely irrelevant inside this range.
Dropping weight class with these is not required.
I have shot large deer out past 275yds with a 20” 308 and MV of 2650
Pass through and excellent expansion.

Barnes TTSX/Hornady GMX are higher BC Bullets but one that has evolved in both bullet and cartridge form to increase the terminal velocity.
Two methods
Lower bullet weight for the cartridge
Higher Muzzle velocities

Bullets like Peregrine and Hasler have innovative rings in relief on the shank.
Lowering friction and pressure required to engage the lands and maintain velocity they produce higher MVs than grooves shank designs.

The hollow point and tips are critical designs in a monolithic bullet.
Multi diameter or tapering hollow point designs with innovative tip materials and designs come into play.
Some tips are for BC
Some tips are much more relevant to the initiation of expansion.
Monolithics without tips have no issues with expansion as the liquid initiates expansion on impact.
However they have a lower BC
And as we all know...BC sells bullets....

Monolithic Bullets that are designed to be frangible are one answer to the ever present expansion question.
The only concern is controlling the trajectory of the large petals that break off.
Standard monolithic bullets can shed petals when run very fast and numerous reports of perforated diaphragms with text book heart lung entry and exit back up the need to scale back the terminal velocity in that example.

Using a softer copper alloy to increase the expansion at lower velocities will increase this risk.
But not all bullets need to be run fast and light.

Anyone shooting UK deer at over 400m is in a very small minority
Those who are shooting woodland roe with bullets design to reliably expand at 400+ are using the wrong bullet.

Getting any bullet to expand reliably at a terminal velocity associated with a 4-600yd shot is a challenge.
Shot placement is critical in any scenario
More so with lower terminal velocity.

What is often misunderstood is the angle of the strike on a shot at that range
Point of impact may match point of aim, but the path thereafter is as high as 45 degrees down due to the flight path the bullet has taken.
You need to aim a lot higher to ensure the wound tract is as you would want with a 100yd shot.
Your bullet could be coming down at the animal from 8-12ft up.


Consider this
On the whole plains game shots in South Africa are at extended ranges that would be uncommon in the UK.
Whilst some of the game is larger and thicker skinned, many of the cartridges are standard UK deer legal ones
243/7-08/7x57/308/30-06/270/6.5x55/ etc etc
Yes they have been one of the biggest consumers, innovators and manufacturers of monolithics in the last 25 years
Out of choice.

Do they know something we don’t?
Or is the forced adoption of monolithic non lead bullets tainting the experience?

Regardless
Choose a bullet that works for you most commonly expected quarry and range.
Anything else is largely irrelevant.

There are a lot of choices now

 

[NigelM]

Am I the only stalker on the SD who doesn’t need to shoot out past 300m? Admittedly I’m not a professional stalker, but I do shoot around a hundred a year, and I’ve never needed to engage at such ranges.

I don't think many of us regularly shoot deer beyond 300m, but I have taken a few "mercy" shots at 400m plus and am very happy to be able to take them successfully. I also enjoy hunting Chamois and 400m plus is not unusual in the mountains. Having a bullet that's up to that task is important to me.

Having the ability and the kit to take the shot doesn't mean you have to make a habit of it. It's an insurance policy most of the time, but a very useful one on the occasions it's needed. I don't think I have ever shot a Roe beyond 200m and I know when I looked at the game book a few years back I worked out the average shot was around 60m, so I'm not a habitual sniper.

Others do take those longer shots regularly. Others use rifle/bullet combinations with a relatively low MV. The change to copper will effect them especially if they are limited to the factory TSX/GMX/E-Tip offerings where the manufacturers in my opinion exaggerate the effectiveness of their bullets ability to expand below 2400 fps.

I've learnt through this thread that there are monolithics available that will expand at lower velocity. Ed will be getting an order from me for the Peregrine VLR4's in the next few weeks. Hearing about them here and researching them online has persuaded me they are different to the main stream offerings and are worth trying.

One of the great things about SD is the pool of knowledge out there and intelligent, informative discussions that take place - most of the time.

 

[NigelM]

To the OP
Your thought process is not unique to monolithic non-lead bullets.

Manufacturers have been designing bullets for differing terminal impacts on differing density and size of game for decades.
SST designed for reliable expansion on American planes game beyond 3 to 400 yards
Swift Scirroco/Nosler Partition - Designed to hold together and maintain at least 2/3 of their original mass and marketed towards those shooting thicker skin and medium-sized game penetration is required at all ranges.
VMax-designed for maximum frangibility.
Anything with the world “bond” in the title - designed to hold together under.

The cup and core design has a wide range of products to cater to anything from short range rabbit to rhino, long range deer to dingo.
You can’t compare bullets on material alone.

Fox bullets expand reliably down to 2000fps
I have tested them.
They are designed with one purpose in mind. Game.
Shot at terminal velocity associated with ranges below 300yds.
BC is largely irrelevant inside this range.
Dropping weight class with these is not required.
I have shot large deer out past 275yds with a 20” 308 and MV of 2650
Pass through and excellent expansion.

Barnes TTSX/Hornady GMX are higher BC Bullets but one that has evolved in both bullet and cartridge form to increase the terminal velocity.
Two methods
Lower bullet weight for the cartridge
Higher Muzzle velocities

Bullets like Peregrine and Hasler have innovative rings in relief on the shank.
Lowering friction and pressure required to engage the lands and maintain velocity they produce higher MVs than grooves shank designs.

The hollow point and tips are critical designs in a monolithic bullet.
Multi diameter or tapering hollow point designs with innovative tip materials and designs come into play.
Some tips are for BC
Some tips are much more relevant to the initiation of expansion.
Monolithics without tips have no issues with expansion as the liquid initiates expansion on impact.
However they have a lower BC
And as we all know...BC sells bullets....

Monolithic Bullets that are designed to be frangible are one answer to the ever present expansion question.
The only concern is controlling the trajectory of the large petals that break off.
Standard monolithic bullets can shed petals when run very fast and numerous reports of perforated diaphragms with text book heart lung entry and exit back up the need to scale back the terminal velocity in that example.

Using a softer copper alloy to increase the expansion at lower velocities will increase this risk.
But not all bullets need to be run fast and light.

Anyone shooting UK deer at over 400m is in a very small minority
Those who are shooting woodland roe with bullets design to reliably expand at 400+ are using the wrong bullet.

Getting any bullet to expand reliably at a terminal velocity associated with a 4-600yd shot is a challenge.
Shot placement is critical in any scenario
More so with lower terminal velocity.

What is often misunderstood is the angle of the strike on a shot at that range
Point of impact may match point of aim, but the path thereafter is as high as 45 degrees down due to the flight path the bullet has taken.
You need to aim a lot higher to ensure the wound tract is as you would want with a 100yd shot.
Your bullet could be coming down at the animal from 8-12ft up.


Consider this
On the whole plains game shots in South Africa are at extended ranges that would be uncommon in the UK.
Whilst some of the game is larger and thicker skinned, many of the cartridges are standard UK deer legal ones
243/7-08/7x57/308/30-06/270/6.5x55/ etc etc
Yes they have been one of the biggest consumers, innovators and manufacturers of monolithics in the last 25 years
Out of choice.

Do they know something we don’t?
Or is the forced adoption of monolithic non lead bullets tainting the experience?

Regardless
Choose a bullet that works for you most commonly expected quarry and range.
Anything else is largely irrelevant.

There are a lot of choices now

Ed, I think this thread and other research I've done has persuaded me that Peregrine bullets do perform very differently to the more regular factory offerings I've been disappointed by and will be ordering some VLR4's from you when the current house move is complete and I've built a bench at the new place. Looking forward to trying them.

What are your thoughts on the VRG3's for Boar? Thinking about the 220gr in .338.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Am I the only stalker on the SD who doesn’t need to shoot out past 300m? Admittedly I’m not a professional stalker, but I do shoot around a hundred a year. I’ll be sad to lose lead bullets but I am sure we can all get used to the lead free stuff.

No your not!

300 is my absolute maximum buggers muddle, just kill the thing shot!

50 - 200m is my normal stalking shot.

 

[shbangsteve]

Am I the only stalker on the SD who doesn’t need to shoot out past 300m? Admittedly I’m not a professional stalker, but I do shoot around a hundred a year. I’ll be sad to lose lead bullets but I am sure we can all get used to the lead free stuff.

No you are not alone. An old stalker ,who had shot several hundred off Scottish hills, once told me,
"If you can't see it clearly enough through a 4x scope, get closer."

 

[BigPat]

No you are not alone. An old stalker ,who had shot several hundred off Scottish hills, once told me,
"If you can't see it clearly enough through a 4x scope, get closer."

I had almost exactly the same experience when I first went to Scotland 30 yrs ago.....I had a S&B 6x42 on my stalking rifle and the guy got me within 250yrds and then asked me if I could see the muscles in the shoulder and hairs on the beast moving in the wind, no, then that’s how you know you need to get closer. Several hours later we were within 60yrds, the right side of the wind and able to watch every muscle flex and hair twitch before I got my shot off. A memory that has lived with me my whole stalking career.
The problem is that down here in Suffolk a lot of the land is flat and vast with only the occasional hedgerow to break it up. This means high seats where possible and longer than wanted shots from sticks. So instead of 6x42 scopes, it’s now variables with mags up to x10, x15 or even x20+ and bullets need to expand reliably at longer range. But for me there is still no better pleasure than stalking deer around woodland, field edges, ditches and hedgerows until you are close enough to hear them eating and to see the steam from their nostrils on a frosty morning.

In terms of copper bullets and their limitations. Everything has its limitations until someone makes a breakthrough with a new product. Think about the original single sticks we shot from, then we evolved and got pairs of sticks with elastic at the top and then we had a revolution with quad sticks that have been a major game changer. The same will happen with non-lead bullets. Maybe they will be copper but maybe there will be a new material or combination of materials, maybe powders will change, maybe barrels will change or maybe we will have to find ways of being more successful stalkers at shorter ranges. The only thing that’s certain is that man has always found a way to overcome engineering problems and that’s all we have with non-lead bullets, an engineering problem!

I have tried several copper bullets for reloading and for my money the best in terms of consistency of performance and accuracy has been the Barnes TTSX. Head and neck shots are devistating and instant, H/L shots all result in the beast being down but I have noticed a tendency for a slightly longer post shot run...but we are talking an extra 20yrds or so and as I mentioned earlier I am usually on open ground so it’s not an issue for tracking. The only others I tried are the RWS HIT which seem to perform much the same to a similar weight lead type bullet but I have noticed they seem to drop off after about 150m (to be fair RWS state a max range of 170m) and I have some Fox rounds made up to try. Oh yeah, and some 235gr TSX in my .375 H&H mag which hit like Thor’s hammer and drop everything from Munty to big fallow where it stands.

Ps. Should have said that the .375 is normally used at ranges no more than 120m, the .308’s are used up to 300m but most shots are in the 80-160m range and the 6.5 Swede is generally the same as the .308’s. Of them all the Swede seems to give me the most confidence with copper bullets but that could just be me as I swing between the Swede and the .308 as a favourite rifle.

 

[nick.308]

This lead ban is gonna make it quite difficult for most people who arent very knowledgable about twist rates etc getting a load for their rifle. I do think a lot of folk will end up having to buy new rifles with faster twist rates.
Im already thinking I cant be bothered with this faff of having to find a load that suits.
If lead was banned tomorrow half of my rifles would become obsolete for deer stalking as they wouldn't stabilise anything of any useful size. Dissapointing really. I hope we still have lead for target shooting. Otherwise I might as-well get a bow and arrow or even a harpoon gun at least then it cant run off! oh wait thats not legal either

 

[alberta boy]

No you are not alone. An old stalker ,who had shot several hundred off Scottish hills, once told me,
"If you can't see it clearly enough through a 4x scope, get closer."

My dad had a similiar saying , " If a Moose looks to far away through a 4x scope , it probably is " .

AB

 

[BigPat]

This lead ban is gonna make it quite difficult for most people who arent very knowledgable about twist rates etc getting a load for their rifle. I do think a lot of folk will end up having to buy new rifles with faster twist rates.
Im already thinking I cant be bothered with this faff of having to find a load that suits.
If lead was banned tomorrow half of my rifles would become obsolete for deer stalking as they wouldn't stabilise anything of any useful size. Dissapointing really. I hope we still have lead for target shooting. Otherwise I might as-well get a bow and arrow or even a harpoon gun at least then it cant run off! oh wait thats not legal either

I was thinking the same way for a while but I am more hopeful now. Although it was a bit of a faff to find a factory load for my 20yr old .308 Sako that was consistently accurate, which I did eventually, in terms of reloading every copper load worked ok and would be fine for hunting deer at normal ranges. The same applies to my 6.5 Swede except I haven’t tried to find a factory load but every copper round that I have loaded has been good enough with TTSX being as good as lead......perhaps some may argue its better with a faster and flatter trajectory.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

This lead ban is gonna make it quite difficult for most people who arent very knowledgable about twist rates etc getting a load for their rifle. I do think a lot of folk will end up having to buy new rifles with faster twist rates.
Im already thinking I cant be bothered with this faff of having to find a load that suits.
If lead was banned tomorrow half of my rifles would become obsolete for deer stalking as they wouldn't stabilise anything of any useful size. Dissapointing really. I hope we still have lead for target shooting. Otherwise I might as-well get a bow and arrow or even a harpoon gun at least then it cant run off! oh wait thats not legal either

That’s rubbish!

honestly I have loaded non toxic for a tikka, sako, brno and a ruger and never failed to get accuracy or efficiency.

if you can load a lead bullet you can load a copper!

it’s no different and nothing to be worried about.

I never even thought of twist rates and all that tosh, I picked a bullet, picked a powder and got on with it.

just load them and shoot them just like lead and stop thinking too much.

 

[Foxyboy43]

A very interesting thread with quite a bit of differing experiences and sadly a common view that lead is on the way out - but I sincerely hope not in my time!
We have all heard the various views and seen the many videos of differing bullets/calibres being shot at ballistic jel or denim-clad pork joints but I wonder has anyone conducted a more relevant side-by-side test by using a number of deer carcasses to conduct a similar experiment? For example to address the copper bullet against lead bullet debate and to determine performance/damage etc. where the beast is hit in different parts of the body and at different ranges etc. I understand that some would see this as wasteful of good meat but it would if conducted properly provide clear and unbiased evidence of different calibre and bullet composition effects and inform us all about which to use for differing occasions rather than the sometimes partisan reports based upon results, which by their very nature, could never be called “controlled conditions”.
Just a thought.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

A very interesting thread with quite a bit of differing experiences and sadly a common view that lead is on the way out - but I sincerely hope not in my time!
We have all heard the various views and seen the many videos of differing bullets/calibres being shot at ballistic jel or denim-clad pork joints but I wonder has anyone conducted a more relevant side-by-side test by using a number of deer carcasses to conduct a similar experiment? For example to address the copper bullet against lead bullet debate and to determine performance/damage etc. where the beast is hit in different parts of the body and at different ranges etc. I understand that some would see this as wasteful of good meat but it would if conducted properly provide clear and unbiased evidence of different calibre and bullet composition effects and inform us all about which to use for differing occasions rather than the sometimes partisan reports based upon results, which by their very nature, could never be called “controlled conditions”.
Just a thought.

Meat waste is minimal with copper, you can eat all the way to the exit hole!

the best way is not to listen to anyone got buy 50 of your chosen bullet waste 10-15 getting your load right and go shoot 35 deer!

then come back and tell us all about it.

that’s exactly what I did all those years ago, because I’ve done it and shot a lot of animals with them I can tell you what I know.

copper is not the devils bullet just load them up and crack on.

but 1 thing make sure your barrel is clean before you shoot the copper, if you don’t it won’t group.

don’t know why it just doesn’t.

so clean barrel better accuracy and once on the copper I cleaned every 50/100 rounds or sometimes 200 or 500 devoid I could be bothered, you know once the accuracy is over 1 inch time for a clean.

 

[StephenToast]

That’s rubbish!

honestly I have loaded non toxic for a tikka, sako, brno and a ruger and never failed to get accuracy or efficiency.

if you can load a lead bullet you can load a copper!

it’s no different and nothing to be worried about.

I never even thought of twist rates and all that tosh, I picked a bullet, picked a powder and got on with it.

just load them and shoot them just like lead and stop thinking too much.

This is my experience. Except with factory ammo. I don't know what my twist is. Whatever the factory sent it out as. I changed to RWS HIT after it was recommended by a friend. It groups nicely and it kills nicely.

added bonus if I do skin one out is comparatively less carcass damage.

I find it best if I think as little as possible. Thinking about things is where the problems start for me.

Oddly. With your point about cleaning. I don't think it affects mine. I had some lead stuff to use up and have shot them at targets in amongst non-lead and it doesn't effect grouping. Maybe because it's no more than half a dozen rounds at a time.

But I do clean my rifle quite frequently anyway.