HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
illegal in scotland with .243 unless you're promoting breaking the law on an open forum
quick,,delete before your next review as the FEO will be trolling through your posts (meant jokingly)Copper suitable for stags for 243
- Thread starter KeithW
- Start date
quick,,delete before your next review as the FEO will be trolling through your posts (meant jokingly)The OP is in Scotland where the bullet weight for Reds has to be minimum 100g, different than England
devon deer stalker
Well-Known Member
I missed that bit, but his neighbour might have been over the border 
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Have a look at this page from Peregrine which twist rates needed for the different bullets. Also not that spin is also a function of speed, and in load development have definitely seen group size shrink with velocity.
Peregrines get their expansion by having a bronze tip that acts as a wedge to initiate expansion in their VLR4 and VRG3 bullets. In tests on ballistic gel and in water jugs there is good expansion even down range. Difficult to show expanded bullets once they have been through a deer, because they cut a good hole straight through.
Because monolithics hold together, you need to rethink the need for bullet weight to get penetration. So a 130 or 140gr monolithic bullet will work like a 162 or 173gn lead, but will be launched at a higher velocity so will almost certainly arrive with more energy. Long high BCs launched at lower velocities really only take over at 300 plus metres.
So the vast majorities of rifles there are perfectly usable monolithic bullets out there. Here in Scotland we have a legal min bullet weight of 100gn for any deer other than Roe. 243 win is a very popular calibre in UK and most are 1 in 10” twist rate. It works best with an 80 to 95gn bullet - regardless of type, and in mono’s an 80gn is very good and will punch right the way through any deer.
With the VRG3, which is a blunt nosed bullet, it’s short enough to stabilise in a 1 in 10” twist rate 243, and @Edinburgh Rifles have developed factory ammo that gives a viable option for those wanting to use their 243s on bigger deer.
VRG3 ballistic data and twist rates
VRG3 Ballistics
VRG2 and VRG3 Ballistic Information Please note that VRG3 bullets in 375 and bigger calibres are ideal for Dangerous Game Hunting. In most cases the application would range from 40 to 100m. For these distances BC are not really important. Quite often the VRG3 bullets in smaller calibres will...
peregrinebullets.co.za
VLR4 ballistic data and twist rates
VLR4 & VLR5 Ballistics
Ballistic Coefficient information for the VLR4 and VLR5 bullet family from Peregrine VLR4 = Expanding Copper Bullet for Hunting VLR5 = Non Expanding Copper Bullet for Practise/Target Shooting Information in this section is accurate and very useful for customers that would like to make
peregrinebullets.co.za
Brighty3006
Well-Known Member
Peregrine 100 grain. Shoots bloody well in my .243 and have used them on Hinds no problem out to 200 yards
243 will kill any stag with an 80 grain bullet with ease and all reasonable placements . Problem is Scottish law as it stands . I shoot 100 grain TTSX from the 260 rem ( same cartrige necked up) Goes through both shoulders of a stag at 400 yards 15 or twenty grains less at a slightly faster velocity will do similar i would bet on it !
Your whole problem is legality until the law changes in Scotland not an ethical one
Edinburgh rifles do a 100 grain copper bullet in their line up , perhaps give it a go ?
Might be worth a read
www.nature.scot
NatureScot Research Report 1312 - Review of the minimum bullet weight for the lawful culling of all deer species in Scotland
The use of lead ammunition, in rifles to kill wildlife will be phased out either through voluntary or legislative means. The timescale for this is likely to be within the next five years. This has prompted a review of current minimum criteria and of particular focus is the suitability of bullet...
www.nature.scot
Oh deer I just have to disagree with that been killing Red deer with .243 for the last forty years and for a living not playing at it not because I have no other choice but because .243 is my caliber of choice.
Would have to be 2 shots to get over 100 grainsShoot it in the head and cut the head off, ta-da, it's lead free (and don't mention you used a 55 grain VMAX)
I might eat my words later and it's early days for me but, against all advice, I bought a .243 (CZ 557 Lux) last year. Recoil is so sweet that you can see everything after the shot in the scope. So far.......everything I have shot with it has behaved not differently to my .308. I was using Federal Powershok 80gr lead and have just moved over to 85 gr Winchester Copper Impact. Time will tell how these go but I cannot foresee a problem up to 150m with correct bullet placement. My only qualm is if the bullet will expand correctly at greater distance and subsequent lower velocity.
Pretty sure ( after maybe 20 years using a 243 with lead and now shooting 100 grain 6.5 from the same case necked up ) that an eighty grain would not only be ok but " Totally Ideal" I base this hypothesis on the fact the 260 will break both shoulders on a big red stag and exit at 400 yards plus ( reliably and predictably) with 100 grain Barnes . I put experience and faith in TTSX and i do not buy into this front fragmenting thing at all , if i am honest i think its a fault being sold as a USP . Pretty sure they must do some sort of annealing at Barnes because copper is a SOB for work hardening , Malabe until the point its not and it cracks and breaks . If you look at the curls on and expanded TTSX its a full curl
I have shot all uk deer( except fallow as i dont have ground with them) with 100 grain TTSX , its a bit much for CWD, Muntjac, Roe but i am building a 223 presently for that . Its the most "Killiest" bullet i have ever used and i haven't yet experienced a really badly "Jellyfied" opposite side.
If our legislation on calibre changes i will very likely go 243 again in the future sometime 150 yards ? TBF anything works a 222 in the dinnerplate size target even , it is just not legal! Provided its not a silly bullet we are going to be talking say three times the distance before we even start to see failure to blow a hole in the opposite flank of a stag. 243 always suffered by folks using poorly selected 6mm bullets for given purpose
Complete bollocks
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
Right back at you.
Well there are better ways to explain what i see as a big error in assessing and reporting the 243 Winchester cartridge.
It was brought out and sold as the Ultimate Whitetail deer cartridge , that could also be a useful varmint getter both small things and medium sized at serious ranges . I have never hunted whitetail but they look as big as your average Sika ? well i have killed them just fine with 243 Into the Very biggest Stags . Also big Fallow , Reds ! Its performance on Fox was outstanding and recoil and speed of recovery to get multiple was superb .After owning one a couple of decades , until very recently when copper proved inevitable and a barrel that was pretty much worn out It was time to change . New Barrel selected in 260 rem 1-7.5 twist , basically i sent the thing to a "fat farm" added 0.5mm to its waist and loaded up 100 grain TTSX . The same weight as a std 243 bullet I used for deer
Explain the difference to me then and all the other folks who are shooting 100 grain copper out of their 6.5 Creeds , 6.5x55, 260 rem etc because 15 tho' extra diameter does not mean squat!
Oh and the 243win normally in the improved version has won quite a few 1000 yard BR events , its limiting factor ( because there are lots of suitable 6mm bullets for target) being its short barrel life. It is not however much different from the life of a 22-250 ( which so many swear by in nations that allow it for deer )
Disrespect the 243 not ! You will definitely see it rise again strongly with new long copper bullets with high BC in copper and faster twists and also in the std twist for those of us who dont need to be all UK deer legal. INDEED ITS A BLOOMING GOOD BUY SECONDHAND AT THIS POINT IN TIME !
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
Disagree entirely. I’d put my money on .243 being obsolete in the UK within a few years, unofficially of course.
Reason is that we Buy guns from manufacturers who will not be making faster rate twist barrels for the .243 as they are not impacted by imminent legality changes like we look to be. Therefore, people will opt for alternatives.
Having shot im the vicinity of 150
Mature red stags with .243 through mm and all in between. I can say from experience, those hit heart/lung or shoulder with .243 using a mixture of premium bullets, took a lot longer to die than those with 7mm and 30 Cala, they also travelled further and required more follow up shots
It is on this I base my judgement. Not based on reading data, but actual decades of field experience
Reason is that we Buy guns from manufacturers who will not be making faster rate twist barrels for the .243 as they are not impacted by imminent legality changes like we look to be. Therefore, people will opt for alternatives.
Having shot im the vicinity of 150
Mature red stags with .243 through mm and all in between. I can say from experience, those hit heart/lung or shoulder with .243 using a mixture of premium bullets, took a lot longer to die than those with 7mm and 30 Cala, they also travelled further and required more follow up shots
It is on this I base my judgement. Not based on reading data, but actual decades of field experience
devon deer stalker
Well-Known Member
Oh, I didn't realise you had shot so few, that explains it then, sorry I didn't know.
PhilRS03
Active Member
If you’re going to transition entirely to copper, the 6mm Creedmoor may be the way to go. Totally agree on everything said about the .243, it’s awesome, however as people have said the factory twist rates arnet ideal and as more copper bullets come to market, the limiting factor for hand loaders at least is bullet seating depth/case capacity to retain SAAMI/CIP COAL. That’s the main reason the 6mm Creedmoor was developed, to allow for significantly more flexibility when it comes to bullet choice. Clearly copper has to be “longer for weight” compared to its lead cores equivalents. If you hand load, there can be significantly more performance to be gained from switching to a 6mm Creed. My opinion for what it’s worth!
All that said- work from the target back to the gun. I’d imagine a .243 is suitable in almost every situation most people will ever find themselves in out stalking! Virtus do an 89gr Merlin, which judging by all the other merlin bullet results I’ve seen will do the job perfectly. Mega repeatable as well in every other caliber I’ve used them in, so no reason to suspect anything different in 6mm..
All that said- work from the target back to the gun. I’d imagine a .243 is suitable in almost every situation most people will ever find themselves in out stalking! Virtus do an 89gr Merlin, which judging by all the other merlin bullet results I’ve seen will do the job perfectly. Mega repeatable as well in every other caliber I’ve used them in, so no reason to suspect anything different in 6mm..
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Gents, please be aware that the 6mm 89GR will not stabilise in a 1:10 Twist for .243Win. That projectile was initially developed for a 6mmARC but will also work in faster twists for .243Win. We have a 70GR and 80GR projectile that will work with the .243Win. Be aware that we will be producing a 100GR Merlin projectile specifically for the .243Win soon however the BC will not be great due to the design in order to reach the stability factor numbers that we are after. Please email us at Virtus Precision so that we can give the best advice. No one bullet will have the ability to do everything however we will advise you on the best projectile for your specific needs.
Ok typed a lot longer reply then deleted it, your frankly talking nonsense. 150 isnt a lot of deer and to be fair- I cant even understand why you need to have owned 3 different caliber deer rifles to achieve that total, indeed i tend to wonder what stage you decided that the cartidge was the thing at fault ? Because If you didn't get results with 243 , its definitely not the cartridge fault - Its been in the top ten deer chamberings from the late 50s certainly well used and topping the lists globally for well over half a century . Meanwhile those who critic the chambering tend to have no practical experience
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