Magnificent 7
Well-Known Member
Paul Carter case and prep services
Custom ammo developer
- Thread starter Jason Doyle
- Start date
It is crystal clear.
For anyone, in the UK, to manufacture ammunition, whether to be given away, or sold, or bartered, or whatever, to another party, is illegal, unless they are registered to do so, and have jumped through quite a lot of other hoops. Which also costs a lot of money, just for the RFD fees, never mind insurance costs.
No ifs or buts, no "my mate loads for me, I don't pay him, but he gets deer and beer ... "
Unless they are registered as a dealer for ammunition manufacture. Which is rather expensive. Not being in the business I wouldn't know the fine details but it seems to cost over £1000 to begin.
Furthermore such ammunition must comply with CIP pressure levels, have been batch tested by a proof house, and a quality system been put in place to establish the necessary record keeping and ongoing testing to ensure consistency of supply.
Of course there are people offering reloading tuition/instruction/load development. Maybe experienced and competent. Or maybe not particularly so.
However, if such a person offers to complete the process, i.e. supply fully manufactured ammo, be very cautious and enquire about the legalities.
Of course, there are some offering tuition, who will show you the ropes (as far as they comprehend them), but, legally I think, whoever seats the bullet into the case has manufactured that ammunition. The shrewd ones will wash their hands of that final procedure and leave that to the client. As-in place bullet there, pull down this lever, Thereby, perhaps, absolving themself of responsibility. Or so they might think.
As for reloading for oneself, that is a completely different matter, fortunately. A regime in which even considerations of ultimate mechanical strength of the equipment are regularly disregarded, and regular loads are created that perhaps would be measured far beyond any proof pressures, if put to the test.
For anyone, in the UK, to manufacture ammunition, whether to be given away, or sold, or bartered, or whatever, to another party, is illegal, unless they are registered to do so, and have jumped through quite a lot of other hoops. Which also costs a lot of money, just for the RFD fees, never mind insurance costs.
No ifs or buts, no "my mate loads for me, I don't pay him, but he gets deer and beer ... "
Unless they are registered as a dealer for ammunition manufacture. Which is rather expensive. Not being in the business I wouldn't know the fine details but it seems to cost over £1000 to begin.
Furthermore such ammunition must comply with CIP pressure levels, have been batch tested by a proof house, and a quality system been put in place to establish the necessary record keeping and ongoing testing to ensure consistency of supply.
Of course there are people offering reloading tuition/instruction/load development. Maybe experienced and competent. Or maybe not particularly so.
However, if such a person offers to complete the process, i.e. supply fully manufactured ammo, be very cautious and enquire about the legalities.
Of course, there are some offering tuition, who will show you the ropes (as far as they comprehend them), but, legally I think, whoever seats the bullet into the case has manufactured that ammunition. The shrewd ones will wash their hands of that final procedure and leave that to the client. As-in place bullet there, pull down this lever, Thereby, perhaps, absolving themself of responsibility. Or so they might think.
As for reloading for oneself, that is a completely different matter, fortunately. A regime in which even considerations of ultimate mechanical strength of the equipment are regularly disregarded, and regular loads are created that perhaps would be measured far beyond any proof pressures, if put to the test.
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swagger700
Well-Known Member
I know someone Yorkshire based, but doubt he'll do it with this poison virus still about cos he's isolated himself
jimmy milnes
Well-Known Member
As above.. Good bloke and easy access from M62..
Jason Doyle
Active Member
Great advice there thank you. If a professional stalker loads his own what are the laws regarding clients using that rifle/ ammo?
Actually it is crystal clear the firearms act states
2)It is an offence for a person to sell or transfer to any other person in the United Kingdom, other than a registered firearms dealer, any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun, unless that other produces a firearm certificate authorising him to purchase or acquire it or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate, or shows that he is by virtue of this Act entitled to purchase or acquire it without holding a certificate.
And CIP is voluntary in the U.K, but sensible to have the ammunition tested.
Other hoops may or may not be relevant depending on circumstances on sale of the ammunition and product liability insurance is a good idea.
Edited to add if you manufacturing the ammunition by way of trade then you do need to be an RFD so don’t make a profit or a lot of it.
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Product liability is your issue you would need to check your insurance covers you to supply ammunition you have manufactured for use by your clients. Also the ammunition is free otherwise you may be considered to be a business and trading in ammunition then require to be an rfd
Full details
Business and other transactions with firearms and ammunition.
(1)A person commits an offence if, by way of trade or business, he—
(a)manufactures, sells, transfers, repairs, tests or proves any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun; [F1or] F2. . .
(b)exposes for sale or transfer, or has in his possession for sale, transfer, repair, test or proof any such firearm or ammunition, or a shot gun, [F3[F4or]
(c)[F5sells or transfers an air weapon, exposes such a weapon for sale or transfer or has such a weapon in his possession for sale or transfer,]]
without being registered under this Act as a firearms dealer.
(2)It is an offence for a person to sell or transfer to any other person in the United Kingdom, other than a registered firearms dealer, any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun, unless that other produces a firearm certificate authorising him to purchase or acquire it or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate, or shows that he is by virtue of this Act entitled to purchase or acquire it without holding a certificate.
(3)It is an offence for a person to undertake the repair, test or proof of a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or of a shot gun, for any other person in the United Kingdom other than a registered firearms dealer as such, unless that other produces or causes to be produced a firearm certificate authorising him to have possession of the firearm or ammunition or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate, or shows that he is by virtue of this Act entitled to have possession of it without holding a certificate.
(4)Subsections (1) to (3) above have effect subject to any exemption under subsequent provisions of this Part of this Act.
(5)A person commits an offence if, with a view to purchasing or acquiring, or procuring the repair, test or proof of, any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun, he produces a false certificate or a certificate in which any false entry has been made, or personates a person to whom a certificate has been granted, or [F6knowingly or recklessly makes a statement false in any material particular].
(6)It is an offence for a pawnbroker to take in pawn any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun.
[F7(7)It is an offence for a pawnbroker to take in pawn an air weapon within the meaning of section 1 of the Air Weapons and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2015.
(8)Subsection (7) applies to Scotland only.]
Textual Amendments
F1
Word in s. 3(1) inserted (S.) (31.12.2016) by Air Weapons and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2015 (asp 10), s. 88(2), sch. 2 para. 1(2)(a); S.S.I. 2016/130, art. 3(c)
F2
Word repealed (1.10.2007) by Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (c. 38), ss. 65, 66(2), Sch. 5; S.I. 2007/2180, art. 4(f)(i)
F3
S. 3(1)(c) and preceding word inserted (1.10.2007) by Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (c. 38), ss. 31(1), 66(2); S.I. 2007/2180, art. 4(a)
F4
Word in s. 3(1) repealed (S.) (31.12.2016) by Air Weapons and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2015 (asp 10), s. 88(2), sch. 2 para. 1(2)(b); S.S.I. 2016/130, art. 3(c)
F5
S. 3(1)(c) repealed (S.) (31.12.2016) by Air Weapons and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2015 (asp 10), s. 88(2), sch. 2 para. 1(2)(c); S.S.I. 2016/130, art. 3(c)
F6
Words in s. 3(5) substituted (1.7.1997) by 1997 c. 5, s. 52(1), Sch. 2 para. 2(1); S.I. 1997/1535, art. 3, Sch. Pt. I
F7
S. 3(7)(8) inserted (10.4.2017) by The Air Weapons and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2015 (Consequential Provisions) Order 2017 (S.I. 2017/452), arts. 1(2), 2(2)
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tikka_madras
Well-Known Member
Two things you don’t lend to anyone: your gun or your wife. If you do they’ll come back f*cked.
That's interesting. Which law/s would someone be breaking if they reloaded ammuntion for another FAC-holder to use?
Graham M
Member
Funny post
I remember going on my first Hare shoot. Some "Travelling gentlemen" had been using the area as an illegal coursing venue and the only way the keeper could stop them was to shoot as many Hares as he could. Shot two and spent the rest of the morning carrying the bloody things around.
You could start at, say, the 1968 firearms act.
Firearms Act 1968
Study say:
"3Business and other transactions with firearms and ammunition
(1)A person commits an offence if, by way of trade or business, he—
(a)manufactures, sells, transfers, repairs, tests or proves any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun ; or
(b)exposes for sale or transfer, or has in his possession for sale, transfer, repair, test or proof any such firearm or ammunition, or a shot gun,without being registered under this Act as a firearms dealer."
Then there is CIP to consider. Which is not "voluntary" in the UK, as another poster has claimed.
E.g. study Ammunitions | Drupal
"AMMUNITIONS
Type Approval (Homologation) and the Inspection and Check of Commercial Ammunition :
Firms wishing to manufacture, to market, or to import small arms ammunition within the C.I.P. (i.e. in a C.I.P. signatory state), must apply for C.I.P. Type Approval (Homologation).
Only those firms that have been granted C.I.P. Type Approval can manufacture and market ammunition for weapons with either smooth bore or rifled barrels.
Once Type Approved the manufacturer must repeat the inspection and check tests for each new batch of manufacture.
A Certificate of Conformity is to be issued for each calibre provided that the C.I.P. Standards have been met.
An inspection mark (Proof Mark of the Proof House) is to be affixed to each box of ammunition."
One may check the status of anyone offering to supply ammunition of their own making, or importation, at CIP - Homologation
I observe that Edinburgh Rifles has offered services in post #20 such as:
"Loads developed and proofed for general use (tested on similar factory rifles)
Loads developed and proofed to a specific rifle (using your rifle), recipe provided as part of development package "
Now, I certainly expect that they are an RFD. Possibly even licensed to manufacture ammunition. And, maybe, just maybe, possess and know how to use the necessary equipment to "proof" their concoctions. Proof being a technical and legal word. Offering to proof something when not qualified to do so also being an offence.
Perhaps they can jump in here and explain the process, and the legalities.
Because I have seriously considered doing something like this, but realised that it is simply not possible for a one-man operation,, the cost of entry being so high, the ongoing costs and administration so onerous. I'd like to think that I could make better ammo than the big companies, but frankly I doubt it. It certainly could not would not be less expensive.
Perhaps a prestige line of semi-bespoke things, rolled on the inner thighs of young virginal Cuban women (allegedly)
Basically, anyone offering to sell you ready made ammo must have jumped through many many hoops, got all their ducks in a row, paid and continue to pay a lot of money merely in obligatory licensing fees and liability insurance, invested in a lot of expensive equipment, not just a chrono, or basic strain gauge pressure measurement device but a full-on piezo setup, test barrels. Holes drilled in cases etc. keep records and box the things up with the obligatory markings, for identification and traceability.
Merely the offering to make such ammo, if not operating within the law, is an offence in itself.
I only know of two UK manufacturers who do this for the commercial market. You might find them on the CIP database.
You could start at, say, the 1968 firearms act.
Firearms Act 1968
www.legislation.gov.uk
Study say:
"3Business and other transactions with firearms and ammunition
(1)A person commits an offence if, by way of trade or business, he—
(a)manufactures, sells, transfers, repairs, tests or proves any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun ; or
(b)exposes for sale or transfer, or has in his possession for sale, transfer, repair, test or proof any such firearm or ammunition, or a shot gun,without being registered under this Act as a firearms dealer."
Then there is CIP to consider. Which is not "voluntary" in the UK, as another poster has claimed.
E.g. study Ammunitions | Drupal
"AMMUNITIONS
Type Approval (Homologation) and the Inspection and Check of Commercial Ammunition :
Firms wishing to manufacture, to market, or to import small arms ammunition within the C.I.P. (i.e. in a C.I.P. signatory state), must apply for C.I.P. Type Approval (Homologation).
Only those firms that have been granted C.I.P. Type Approval can manufacture and market ammunition for weapons with either smooth bore or rifled barrels.
Once Type Approved the manufacturer must repeat the inspection and check tests for each new batch of manufacture.
A Certificate of Conformity is to be issued for each calibre provided that the C.I.P. Standards have been met.
An inspection mark (Proof Mark of the Proof House) is to be affixed to each box of ammunition."
One may check the status of anyone offering to supply ammunition of their own making, or importation, at CIP - Homologation
I observe that Edinburgh Rifles has offered services in post #20 such as:
"Loads developed and proofed for general use (tested on similar factory rifles)
Loads developed and proofed to a specific rifle (using your rifle), recipe provided as part of development package "
Now, I certainly expect that they are an RFD. Possibly even licensed to manufacture ammunition. And, maybe, just maybe, possess and know how to use the necessary equipment to "proof" their concoctions. Proof being a technical and legal word. Offering to proof something when not qualified to do so also being an offence.
Perhaps they can jump in here and explain the process, and the legalities.
Because I have seriously considered doing something like this, but realised that it is simply not possible for a one-man operation,, the cost of entry being so high, the ongoing costs and administration so onerous. I'd like to think that I could make better ammo than the big companies, but frankly I doubt it. It certainly could not would not be less expensive.
Perhaps a prestige line of semi-bespoke things, rolled on the inner thighs of young virginal Cuban women (allegedly)
Basically, anyone offering to sell you ready made ammo must have jumped through many many hoops, got all their ducks in a row, paid and continue to pay a lot of money merely in obligatory licensing fees and liability insurance, invested in a lot of expensive equipment, not just a chrono, or basic strain gauge pressure measurement device but a full-on piezo setup, test barrels. Holes drilled in cases etc. keep records and box the things up with the obligatory markings, for identification and traceability.
Merely the offering to make such ammo, if not operating within the law, is an offence in itself.
I only know of two UK manufacturers who do this for the commercial market. You might find them on the CIP database.
U.K. is exempt from CIP if you study the history of CIP, Homologate has been achieved by gamebore? and eley hawk on the shotgun side is the only U.K. manufacture of cartridges/ammunition in the UK to homologate all their ammunition with CIP.
Eley Hawk is the first UK manufacturer of shotgun cartridges to successfully homologate all their ammunition with CIP | Eley Hawk
PRESS RELEASE Eley Hawk is the first UK manufacturer of shotgun cartridges to successfully homologate all their ammunition with CIP via the...
www.eleyhawkltd.com
CIP approved is slightly different and requires ammunition to be tested by Birmingham proof house to be shown to be compliant with CIP. If homologation is compulsory in the U.K. how are Express, Hull, Edinburgh Rifles, HPS target rifle ltd etc making and selling cartridges and ammunition?
naturally anybody loading ammunition to sell would want to voluntarily get their ammunition tested to comply with CIP to insure their ammunition is safe to use and buyers expect it to state CIP approved on the packaging.
it is mandatory for ammunition and cartridges to be CIP approved if you wish to export it outside the U.K.
Ring Wayne at at the Birmingham proof house if you want the full facts.
Within the firearms act as a business you need to be an RFD to manufacture to sell ammunition, other licences may be required but they are part of ER2016.
Hence making ammunition for your friend (assuming compliance with FAC terms) or clients is acceptable provide you do not sell it at a profit, make only small quantity (what ever that may be as it has never been tested in law) and all parties accept the risks.
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brock and norris
Well-Known Member
WE used to offer that service when I was on the Farm and had our own range . Unfortunately now its an 80 mile round trip to the ranges and we are extremely busy in the workshops so i just do not have the time .
I wasn't thinking of a commercial undertaking - just one FAC-holder loading some rounds for another FAC-holder.You could start at, say, the 1968 firearms act.
Firearms Act 1968
Study say:
"3Business and other transactions with firearms and ammunition
(1)A person commits an offence if, by way of trade or business, he—
(a)manufactures, sells, transfers, repairs, tests or proves any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun ; or
(b)exposes for sale or transfer, or has in his possession for sale, transfer, repair, test or proof any such firearm or ammunition, or a shot gun,without being registered under this Act as a firearms dealer."
Then there is CIP to consider. Which is not "voluntary" in the UK, as another poster has claimed.
E.g. study Ammunitions | Drupal
"AMMUNITIONS
Type Approval (Homologation) and the Inspection and Check of Commercial Ammunition :
Firms wishing to manufacture, to market, or to import small arms ammunition within the C.I.P. (i.e. in a C.I.P. signatory state), must apply for C.I.P. Type Approval (Homologation).
Only those firms that have been granted C.I.P. Type Approval can manufacture and market ammunition for weapons with either smooth bore or rifled barrels.
Once Type Approved the manufacturer must repeat the inspection and check tests for each new batch of manufacture.
A Certificate of Conformity is to be issued for each calibre provided that the C.I.P. Standards have been met.
An inspection mark (Proof Mark of the Proof House) is to be affixed to each box of ammunition."
One may check the status of anyone offering to supply ammunition of their own making, or importation, at CIP - Homologation
I observe that Edinburgh Rifles has offered services in post #20 such as:
"Loads developed and proofed for general use (tested on similar factory rifles)
Loads developed and proofed to a specific rifle (using your rifle), recipe provided as part of development package "
Now, I certainly expect that they are an RFD. Possibly even licensed to manufacture ammunition. And, maybe, just maybe, possess and know how to use the necessary equipment to "proof" their concoctions. Proof being a technical and legal word. Offering to proof something when not qualified to do so also being an offence.
Perhaps they can jump in here and explain the process, and the legalities.
Because I have seriously considered doing something like this, but realised that it is simply not possible for a one-man operation,, the cost of entry being so high, the ongoing costs and administration so onerous. I'd like to think that I could make better ammo than the big companies, but frankly I doubt it. It certainly could not would not be less expensive.
Perhaps a prestige line of semi-bespoke things, rolled on the inner thighs of young virginal Cuban women (allegedly)
Basically, anyone offering to sell you ready made ammo must have jumped through many many hoops, got all their ducks in a row, paid and continue to pay a lot of money merely in obligatory licensing fees and liability insurance, invested in a lot of expensive equipment, not just a chrono, or basic strain gauge pressure measurement device but a full-on piezo setup, test barrels. Holes drilled in cases etc. keep records and box the things up with the obligatory markings, for identification and traceability.
Merely the offering to make such ammo, if not operating within the law, is an offence in itself.
I only know of two UK manufacturers who do this for the commercial market. You might find them on the CIP database.
Is that also unlawful?
No provided you do not make a profit, both parties accept the risk and both comply with the terms of their FAC so for example you cannot make .308 ammo for a friend unless you both have .308 ammo on your certificates or if only they have .308 on their certificate then they must seat the bullet to make the finished round.
Good - that's what I thought.
Essentially, it is in fact not unlawful for an ordinary FAC-holder to make ammunition and to transfer it to another FAC-holder for his/her use, as long as both parties are indeed permitted to possess that type of ammunition.
Generally speaking, I won't load for friends. I make them come to my reloading room and load for themselves. If they are not a reloader, I teach them how to set up the equipment, how to choose a powder and watch them at each stage of the process -but I make them do the work. In the end, doing it this way is more bother for me than to just reload for them, but it gives them a better idea of what goes on and some ownership of the results. Sometimes an interest in reloading is piqued, but more often, not. Usually it just keeps them from asking too often, because my answer is always the same: "Come by. I'll show you how."
In many instances I find they consider their time is more valuable than mine so they just buy factory ammo.~Muir
In many instances I find they consider their time is more valuable than mine so they just buy factory ammo.~Muir
I would suggest that you do not take anybody's words, or thoughts, seriously at face value, but rather do a little bit of research into the laws, both statute and case, that apply to manufacturing ammunition.
I make no claims to be an expert, other than that I did, for a while, investigate setting up a boutique manufacturing operation. Not reloading. All new virgin materials. For some particular chamberings that might be of interest to some high net worth people who indulge their interests in distant lands. Then realised that it was far beyond my resources to even get started.
As for those offering to reload some random brass in mundane chamberings,, even "develop a load" to suit a specific firearm and sell you some, well do your research is the best that I can suggest.
For those who offer to "reload for friends", or "friends ask for reloads", "it's not a business", or have been roped in by a dealer to perhaps knock out some stuff, at less than minimum wage remuneration, nevermind. Try saying no. Politely. Perhaps "I am to busy at the moment". or "I have run out of components", or just say no.
Should you choose to ignore this advice, then you might care to take a look at the sentencing guidelines. And consider carefully whether you want to get into or out of this game.
Or if you are already in it, as I suspect some respondents are, and seem to be seeking self justification, or affirmation, or are simply clueless and have not kept up with the rules, about what they are doing, for their goings-on,
Firearms – Transfer and manufacture - for consultation only
www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk
kimh
Well-Known Member
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