Deflection
- Thread starter Sol
- Start date
You did a good job getting it sorted out, we really only get tested when the **** hits the fan.
I had an experience a couple years ago with 6.5CM I was calling Roe bucks and a young buck come flying in stopped about 20 yards away staring at me, cross hairs lined up under the chin hey presto deer down, two minutes later the buck gets up staggers off quick reload and down he went with a chest shot, I was shooting 143g ELDX must have just skiffed the spine without fatal damage. Shite happens but we keep going forward.
I had an experience a couple years ago with 6.5CM I was calling Roe bucks and a young buck come flying in stopped about 20 yards away staring at me, cross hairs lined up under the chin hey presto deer down, two minutes later the buck gets up staggers off quick reload and down he went with a chest shot, I was shooting 143g ELDX must have just skiffed the spine without fatal damage. Shite happens but we keep going forward.
I shot a 25-06 for many years, loved it but had a couple act as you described-sika in the rut especially. I think very high velocity has a greater tendency to do slightly weird stuff. Broadside shot a roe doe once, it bounced off the scapula and traveled down the whole side of the beast doing most ribs and ending up in the middle of the haunch-same side I had shot her in as well. As selous describes, had large stags on their feet, frozen for an uncomfortable amount of time before putting in a second shot-hearts blown to bits. As a previous post says, once the bullet leaves the rifle it is a chain of events you have no control over, weird things happen, you can never assume the outcome.
I had exactly this with a young fallow, good shot placement behind the shoulder, exited the front of the chest. The deer laid down but didn’t die, needed a follow up to the brain. This was with a 120 gr ballistic tip from a 6.5x55.Discovered 3 reds In an area we never see them quick ride home for the .243 and on return I was able too get a nice shoulder shot off, I wait for it too tip and It just keeps standing... and standing... and standing.
After a few minutes I close the distance and wrap around so I can take a broadside shot as It could care less about me on it, I take another shot and Its still on its feet for a good amount of time and even when walking up too it Its eyes were closed, and It had a blink reaction so yet another shot into the back of the head too truly end this situation.
on recovery I'm baffled too learn why It shook the first shot off, it completely bounced off the humerus deflecting it into the cavity and out the neck in the opening of the rib-cage where people "stick" deer too bleed, unfortunately for me and the deer whilst the shot hut it hard there wasn't nearly enough blood loss, what Is unfortunate given how close It is too the arteries for the heart.
I’ve also had similar with a munty buck, similar shot placement bullet deflected and exited the top of the neck, 80 gr TTSX from the 25-45.
Sol
Well-Known Member
That I agree with, Its not really the question "Will It shoot copper okay" Its more going too be will it even make the legal requirements.
I had worked up a stunningly accurate 80gr TTSX round in my 20" .243 (Sako 75) only to work out that it wasn't deer legal (England). Thankfully, the load scaled up nicely to give me a slightly less accurate (but more than good enough) legal round cracking out at 3134 fps and hence 1744ftlb. I then tested the factory loaded VOR-TX equivalent and was surprised to see it managed 3122 fps, ie 1731 ftlb, so also legal in England & Wales. Both IIRC would be illegal in Scotland where its 1750 ftlb min compared to 1700 in England & Wales.
You may not like the answer @Sol , but you should probably chrono your rounds to see if they do make the 1750 requirement for red deer.
Sol
Well-Known Member
I dont deny this, I do know the original ammunition meant too be used was Norma and I suspect It was meant too be 105grs the energy requirements out of a 16.5" barrel & 1/8 twist are reasonably within that requirement.
Its probably slightly partly my fault but not something I would of known I needed a more suitable rifle and he had one there sitting that he knew would take federal without needing too alter the zero but It wasn't the rifles preferred ammunition, and being at our limit of .243 we couldn't just grab another box there and then besides wasting 20 rounds (a box lasts us well over a year so a bit annoying too fire them aimlessly at targets)
Were under the limit now and can justify another box next time we go too the shop, we'll call ahead and see if we can use there chrono too verify the normas, I dont disagree the Federals are probably under powered at least red deer season for all intended purposes Is over now, enough time that we can just move the scope back on the larger .243 and use that instead.
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@Sol I also shoot 100gr lead federals out of a 243.
Ive had two weird ones on roe, never on reds. One deer was at c50m but lying down with (as I discovered afterwards) its front legs covering the heart - the shot simply caused a flesh wound and deflected off a leg bone, very much poor shot placement. I also have had bullets bounce around inside having hit shoulder bone - exploding everything from the stomach, even a haunch once.
As others have said, it happens, just crack on.
Ive had two weird ones on roe, never on reds. One deer was at c50m but lying down with (as I discovered afterwards) its front legs covering the heart - the shot simply caused a flesh wound and deflected off a leg bone, very much poor shot placement. I also have had bullets bounce around inside having hit shoulder bone - exploding everything from the stomach, even a haunch once.
As others have said, it happens, just crack on.
Any factory load out of a 16” .243 is unlikely to make 1700 ft-lb, let alone 1750. It doesn’t really matter what the intended load was or the twist.
.243 is overbore, therefore needs slow powders to stay under pressure and therefore longer barrels to achieve legal velocities / muzzle energies for larger deer. Fine for roe in Scotland though.
Would be interested to see the velocities of the Norma’s compared to what’s on the box. They list their 100 gr White Tail at 3447 fps. Hodgdon don’t give any 100 gr loads faster than 3120, Nosler 3170, Sierra 3000 fps. How Norma have managed an extra 300+ fps out of there ammo I don’t know, that’s the kind of speed increase people expect going from a standard to a magnum cartridge.
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Sol
Well-Known Member
Its possible with the but very unlikely I do agree.
I could be wrong about the barrel lengths as It seems like the rifle might of previously been rebarreled from 270 too 243, It could be either 18 at the low end or 20 at the high end in terms of barrel length end I'm getting results of Federals and Norma's being within the legal range for an 18" barrel not hugely over it, but over it regardless.
I think regardless we'll chrono them and I'll gather more information anyways, in all reality were the only real ones that can genuinely get the information otherwise.
I do appreciate bringing it up regardless, since I dont own the rifles or hold the FAC Its something I would of never really thought about otherwise, I do believe the rifle was pretty much exclusively a roe woodland rifle up until now..... not that that justifies it, but Its not like its been an under-legal red rifle for 20+ years.
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Teckel Hunter
Active Member
I had the same experience with my .243 with 2 roe deer standing 20 foot apart, left and right to me about 30 meters in front of me. shot the one n the right and in the corner of my eye I could see the left drop. shocked I turned to the one I thought I had shot and that was laying where it was shot. on inspection i had hit a rib on the way in and it had deflected through the throat and straight through the neck of the one on the left.
its a good reminder how lethal they are.
Sol
Well-Known Member
Im just using rough estimations from Google from there manufacture, so I wouldn't say accurate but it at least gives a wide-ish estimation of the general ranges of fps and energy.
As you say the only genuine way too properly know is by going and testing, for all intended purposes
We could test it or just leave it, as mentioned the rifle will be overall useless besides roe deer with the ban incoming regardless, and with no real need too shoot red deer this time of year now it's not overly difficult too go pull the scope of the larger rifle and set it a little back so it's more usable
If it wasn't for his shoulder issues last year we would of used the larger rifle fine, but he couldn't even fire a 222 for a while, wasn't until we were actively going after reds I realised how infeasible the rifle for me was in its current state, it logistically was never meant to be permanent rifle regardless and this just further gives us the need too switch it over, I enjoy the fact the other one has a hair trigger too that's handy in some situations
It does make me wonder why the legal requirement is 1750 and not 1500 though, I know there's quite a lot of straight wall cartridges that have the same issue but are no more less lethal than calibes that retain energy.
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Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
The .243 is touted as the ideal cartridge for beginners, the recoil sensitive and people of small stature.
I would say that its actually an experts tool for the larger species because bullet placement needs to be more precise than with a more energetic cartridge firing a heavier bullet.
I would say that its actually an experts tool for the larger species because bullet placement needs to be more precise than with a more energetic cartridge firing a heavier bullet.
As my post above with advertised figures vs published load data, you really can’t rely on figures on the box, they are often over estimated, you are then estimating reduction for shortening the barrel.
If it is a 16” it will not meet the requirements, 18” still very unlikely.
Not having a pop at all, just highlighting that you (and others shooting factory .243 from short barrels) may well not be hitting the requirements. The lack of energy and velocity may well have contributed to the issue that started the thread.
As for the legal requirements, who knows? You can shoot a roe with a .223 in Scotland we can’t in England, it’s all a bit arbitrary.
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UpNorthMI
Well-Known Member
I appreciate that every animal in the world has been taken with a .22 or a bow, personally I like to have what I think is enough gun for the task. The OP experienced a strange deflection in a .243 shot animal, these things happen, they typically happen more to lighter weight bullets. Personally I don't hunt deer in the UK anymore with anything less than a .308, particularly as we are moving onto non lead bullets, as a reloader, I typically have 2 different bullet weights that I use, one for "small deer" and one for "larger deer", I load both at similar velocities so they more or less shoot the same trajectory. Most of my stalking still involves seeing both Red and Roe on the same outings so I want a solution that works well on the larger animal.
I've been actively stalking for over 40 years and have shot a lot of roe and red hind during my early cull years with both .243 (100gn) and .308 (150 gn). Both performed well with accurately placed shots. For shooting red hinds at any distance, my preference firmly moved to .308 as the .243 often required a second shot on red hinds. I moved onto red stag stalking and found the .308 lacking on occasions, I stepped up to .338 WM shooting 200gn Nosler Ballistic Tip, I never shot a red stag twice after that!
My son and I shot 32 buffalo on a trip last year, shooting both .375 H&H and 500/416NE, it became apparent very quickly that bullet weight and kinetic energy play a major factor in real world knock down. I hunt a lot of white tailed deer in the northern US in thick woodland / swamp, typically we shoot either a minimum of .308 or .30-06, we lose a number of deer every year that have perfect shot placement but manage to travel way too far after being shot and cannot be located. I've started to move up to .300 WM, 9.3x62 and light bullets (200 gn) in .375 for these woodland deer.
My .243 has not shot a deer in a couple of decades but is an excellent fox rifle with 60 gn bullets. Personally I don't find much difference between the recoil of a .243, 6.5, 7mm or .308, I believe recoil is not much of an issue when stalking as you are so focused on the situation. I do appreciate that for new shooters and for smaller built shooters caliber and recoil are important. I'm not sure I would be recommending a .243 as a single rifle today for shooting all UK deer, particularly as we are forced to move to non lead bullets. Maybe as the OP gets more rifle experience, they will become much more tolerable to recoil and personally I would suggest a second rifle in moving up from .243 to a slightly larger caliber which in general should provide improved knock down. I'm a .243 fan for Roe and bellow sized deer, our larger UK deer are better taken with something larger than .243.
I know we all have our views, experiences and preferences and there is a lot of ways to achieve dead deer. These are my thoughts.
I've been actively stalking for over 40 years and have shot a lot of roe and red hind during my early cull years with both .243 (100gn) and .308 (150 gn). Both performed well with accurately placed shots. For shooting red hinds at any distance, my preference firmly moved to .308 as the .243 often required a second shot on red hinds. I moved onto red stag stalking and found the .308 lacking on occasions, I stepped up to .338 WM shooting 200gn Nosler Ballistic Tip, I never shot a red stag twice after that!
My son and I shot 32 buffalo on a trip last year, shooting both .375 H&H and 500/416NE, it became apparent very quickly that bullet weight and kinetic energy play a major factor in real world knock down. I hunt a lot of white tailed deer in the northern US in thick woodland / swamp, typically we shoot either a minimum of .308 or .30-06, we lose a number of deer every year that have perfect shot placement but manage to travel way too far after being shot and cannot be located. I've started to move up to .300 WM, 9.3x62 and light bullets (200 gn) in .375 for these woodland deer.
My .243 has not shot a deer in a couple of decades but is an excellent fox rifle with 60 gn bullets. Personally I don't find much difference between the recoil of a .243, 6.5, 7mm or .308, I believe recoil is not much of an issue when stalking as you are so focused on the situation. I do appreciate that for new shooters and for smaller built shooters caliber and recoil are important. I'm not sure I would be recommending a .243 as a single rifle today for shooting all UK deer, particularly as we are forced to move to non lead bullets. Maybe as the OP gets more rifle experience, they will become much more tolerable to recoil and personally I would suggest a second rifle in moving up from .243 to a slightly larger caliber which in general should provide improved knock down. I'm a .243 fan for Roe and bellow sized deer, our larger UK deer are better taken with something larger than .243.
I know we all have our views, experiences and preferences and there is a lot of ways to achieve dead deer. These are my thoughts.
I definitely agree with this ^^^
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