Democratising Deer Stalking?

Anyone can get into stalking with the right mentality. Yes it’s hard, but that’s how it should be. I personally don’t think the amount of newcomers is a good thing. Many don’t have a clue what they are doing and it’s the deer that suffer as a result.

This is the case with a lot of industries, I’m an Arborist, I’ve done it for a long time and worked my balls off to get good at it. In our industry we have colleges pumping new people out year after year who think they can just wander into a top job and do everything. Everything else suffers, quality of work, tree care, safety. It does make it seem like a bad idea, but now 15 years in its my responsibility to show them the way. It’s all like driving you pass your test and then you learn. It is just quicker, safer and more enjoyable process if you have help from experienced people on the ground.
 
I think there are many things with modern life that things are instant, so get a FAC and deer legal rifle you’re a deer stalker, do DSC1 you’re a deer stalker, but you’re a deer stalk with no land to stalk how can this be I must’ve able to have my own permission, I’ll bang on doors, write letters the farmer will give me permission!
well sorry for most cases it don’t work like that and like most things in life it’s going to cost you, be it paid stalks, join a syndicate or a holiday for a week On the hinds or similar.
you might get a chance by beating on a shoot and helping out the keeper (free labour) out of season but that might only be pest control.
You can’t compare the UK to any other country due to land ownership or firearms law.
There are plenty of newcomers who have been helped by the membership off here so I wouldn’t say it’s a closed shop.
Just my thoughts.
 
This is the case with a lot of industries, I’m an Arborist, I’ve done it for a long time and worked my balls off to get good at it. In our industry we have colleges pumping new people out year after year who think they can just wander into a top job and do everything. Everything else suffers, quality of work, tree care, safety. It does make it seem like a bad idea, but now 15 years in its my responsibility to show them the way. It’s all like driving you pass your test and then you learn. It is just quicker, safer and more enjoyable process if you have help from experienced people on the ground.
The same with my industry electrical contracting. I’m a project manager now but I am also still an electrician. I done a 4 year apprenticeship which I actually started when I was still at school. There’s courses now that let blokes rewire somebody’s house or much worse a commercial site with just a few weeks of night school!! A few grand for a course and your a qualified electrician it’s outrageous!! they come fresh out of college and haven’t a clue.
 
I ymthink across a lot of a trade based industries it’s like that. There’s a four week course to be an Arborist. 15 years deep I’m still learning new things all the time so I haven’t a clue what people think they can learn in a month.

all the best man
 
Not everyone who wants to start stalking, have just woken up one morning with a new and sudden desire to shoot deer. I started shooting with an air rifle 35 years ago, I then went to shotguns. Permissions come and go over the years, but you learn as you go, you start to understand the countryside on a deeper level than others, you see things regulary that others may never see and you appreciate how lucky you are.
The last three years I have been shooting rabbits over three permissions, almost 800 acres, using .17 hmr, so I feel that I am well grounded to take this step.
 
Why should a land owner not be paid for something that by definition has a value (because you want to do it and someone else would also like to) - getting it for free is all very well but there will always be someone who will offer money for it, you might not lose the ground but as they say money talks and very few farmers actually care about the deer unless they are damaging crops.

The old boy who owns my main ground (3,000 acres) has been approached multiple times by others for the shooting rights, offering him varying amounts of money, but he refuses each of them. I don’t pay a penny for the stalking, apart from a couple of butchered muntjac carcasses a year & a bottle of something nice at Christmas, and it’s an arrangement that suits us both fine.
 
Victoria is a little state here and alone in square miles is 87,816.6 mi² WA is one million sq.

The UK in square miles. 93,627.8 mi²

Pop 26 million Vic

Pop 67 million UK

This huge population that is only growing is a huge part of your problem. I read in an above post where a Park or something in England is of 2 million acres and the common man cant get a go at it.
I shudder at the thought and with the advent of the modern internet it seems that there are many many that have never grown up with a gun that are swelling the ranks in both countries.
More hunters to share the land area.

Victoria alone has 18 million acres of public deer hunting lands and for a fifty buck game licence its open slather here.

I feel for the genuine members that don`t have a decent permission and have to pay the 500 quid (caberslash)
 
Watch some of the public land vids on YouTube Prime or Netflix's. Frightening with various people hunting the same individual quarry at the same time!

Then look at the stats, I went into them in more detail on another thread. In Scotland we shoot 1 deer per year for every 66ac of public land. In the USA that figure is one for every 3,200 acres.

We simply dont have the space for public land hunting. Ok there are those that claim it would be cheaper to let the public shoot our public forests rather than paid rangers and contractors.
1. Leases dont work for the simple fact that leaseholders wand trophy heads and more deer so avoid shooting does.
2. We simply have far to high a human population density and general public use of our forests. I am sure most of us have encountered walkers, mountain bikers etc off the beaten track. I certainly meet them frequently.
3. You would need as many if not more Forestry rangers to control who was going where with what, when and shooting what.
4. Yes FLS pay rangers and contractors but the vast majority of that is recovered in carcass sales so net cost is close to zero. If you were paying people to manage a shooting public AND getting more browsing damage because numbers weren't controlled it would be more expensive for the country, not less.
 
Watch some of the public land vids on YouTube Prime or Netflix's. Frightening with various people hunting the same individual quarry at the same time!

Then look at the stats, I went into them in more detail on another thread. In Scotland we shoot 1 deer per year for every 66ac of public land. In the USA that figure is one for every 3,200 acres.

We simply dont have the space for public land hunting. Ok there are those that claim it would be cheaper to let the public shoot our public forests rather than paid rangers and contractors.
1. Leases dont work for the simple fact that leaseholders wand trophy heads and more deer so avoid shooting does.
2. We simply have far to high a human population density and general public use of our forests. I am sure most of us have encountered walkers, mountain bikers etc off the beaten track. I certainly meet them frequently.
3. You would need as many if not more Forestry rangers to control who was going where with what, when and shooting what.
4. Yes FLS pay rangers and contractors but the vast majority of that is recovered in carcass sales so net cost is close to zero. If you were paying people to manage a shooting public AND getting more browsing damage because numbers weren't controlled it would be more expensive for the country, not less.

Given SLE's 'peerless' organisational abilities, and armed with the insights you illustrate, you'd possibly conclude it may be possible for the former to arrange affairs in such a manner so as people do not end up being in the same blocks?

To answer these points in turn:

1) Cull returns can be monitored in such a manner as to nip any such practices in the bud. I'd be interested to learn of any evidence to support this assertion about lease holders not shooting sufficient does; my own experience of holding a lease with the predecessor of SLE resulted in my being one of a very small number nationwide of practitioners (be they paid or paying) to exceed their cull target;

2) See 1) above, this argument may be true of populous areas and woods in/around towns, but is by no means a universal situation through the NFE; at 5 miles out of town the lease I ran was quite a dog owners delight, and used more or less as a canine toilet, yet I managed to fulfill the cull targets without recourse to night or out of season shooting; I too encountered many a biker or dog walker, but the deer also were used to their passing through, and it was not that unusual to grass an animal shortly afterwards, sometimes less than ten minutes later, so I feel the point is somewhat moot and perhaps playing more to raise fears or anxiety in the potential hunter rather than the hunted, the latter take little notice of them;

3) Not if the superior organisational skills of SLE were put to the test, one WRM controls many permissions already, I see little difference in the same system being rolled out for any person being tasked with shooting a certain designated watershed or block; where there's a will there's a way; left to the encumbent the will is lacking, not the way;

4) As I recall it cost the taxpayer north of £600 per animal shot to foot the total bill for the ranger force; I struggle to see quite how paying £120 per forest roe deer to a contractor and then sell it for less than a third this sum would square the circle? The 'If' in your last sentence carries some weight, what 'if' affairs were so arranged that your 'scary scenario' did not transpire, as is the case elsewhere? IIRC the budget for deer control in Scotland was iro £13million a few years back, according to the Senior WRM I was in conversation with. Would he have been lying? As to browsing damage, the roe preferred to starve in winter 2010/11 than eat any young sitka spruce shoots, the only thing above the snow line for weeks here. Perhaps you can quantify the browsing damage inflicted after the lockdown ends, it will be a great opportunity for you - my contention is that it's a convenient if much overstated scare tactic to justify the status quo, and does not stand up to scrutiny or on the ground evidence; in the latter years of my own tenure, we were experiencing natural regeneration of rowans, birch etc, which indicated to objective minds that there was no great threat of browsing damage to less preferred commercial crop species.

Nobody is looking to promote a 'Wild West in the woods' scenario, nor are they anticipating multiple instances of breaches of safety or dangerous practices with firearms, nor a scenario where three Rifles all unknown to one another are all racing in to shoot the same deer. Locally available and able practitioners could and should have a place in the scenario,
any aspiring help should be encouraged and where possible enabled, rather than discouraged, if the end result desired is fewer deer in the forest. I know that this may be of limited value to any potential practitioner travelling from afar, but given the daily commuting distances of some of the professionals of the part, there is surely room for the much vaunted
yet somewhat elusive 'social inclusivity' of locals who can help.

Where there's a will, there's a way.
 
4. Yes FLS pay rangers and contractors but the vast majority of that is recovered in carcass sales so net cost is close to zero. If you were paying people to manage a shooting public AND getting more browsing damage because numbers weren't controlled it would be more expensive for the country, not less.

That is quite impressive. I wouldn't have thought that it would have even come close to washing its own face. It would be interesting to see it broken down a bit further and the Ranger v Contractor figures cost/return compared?
 
Given SLE's 'peerless' organisational abilities, and armed with the insights you illustrate, you'd possibly conclude it may be possible for the former to arrange affairs in such a manner so as people do not end up being in the same blocks?

To answer these points in turn:

1) Cull returns can be monitored in such a manner as to nip any such practices in the bud. I'd be interested to learn of any evidence to support this assertion about lease holders not shooting sufficient does; my own experience of holding a lease with the predecessor of SLE resulted in my being one of a very small number nationwide of practitioners (be they paid or paying) to exceed their cull target;

2) See 1) above, this argument may be true of populous areas and woods in/around towns, but is by no means a universal situation through the NFE; at 5 miles out of town the lease I ran was quite a dog owners delight, and used more or less as a canine toilet, yet I managed to fulfill the cull targets without recourse to night or out of season shooting; I too encountered many a biker or dog walker, but the deer also were used to their passing through, and it was not that unusual to grass an animal shortly afterwards, sometimes less than ten minutes later, so I feel the point is somewhat moot and perhaps playing more to raise fears or anxiety in the potential hunter rather than the hunted, the latter take little notice of them;

3) Not if the superior organisational skills of SLE were put to the test, one WRM controls many permissions already, I see little difference in the same system being rolled out for any person being tasked with shooting a certain designated watershed or block; where there's a will there's a way; left to the encumbent the will is lacking, not the way;

4) As I recall it cost the taxpayer north of £600 per animal shot to foot the total bill for the ranger force; I struggle to see quite how paying £120 per forest roe deer to a contractor and then sell it for less than a third this sum would square the circle? The 'If' in your last sentence carries some weight, what 'if' affairs were so arranged that your 'scary scenario' did not transpire, as is the case elsewhere? IIRC the budget for deer control in Scotland was iro £13million a few years back, according to the Senior WRM I was in conversation with. Would he have been lying? As to browsing damage, the roe preferred to starve in winter 2010/11 than eat any young sitka spruce shoots, the only thing above the snow line for weeks here. Perhaps you can quantify the browsing damage inflicted after the lockdown ends, it will be a great opportunity for you - my contention is that it's a convenient if much overstated scare tactic to justify the status quo, and does not stand up to scrutiny or on the ground evidence; in the latter years of my own tenure, we were experiencing natural regeneration of rowans, birch etc, which indicated to objective minds that there was no great threat of browsing damage to less preferred commercial crop species.

Nobody is looking to promote a 'Wild West in the woods' scenario, nor are they anticipating multiple instances of breaches of safety or dangerous practices with firearms, nor a scenario where three Rifles all unknown to one another are all racing in to shoot the same deer. Locally available and able practitioners could and should have a place in the scenario,
any aspiring help should be encouraged and where possible enabled, rather than discouraged, if the end result desired is fewer deer in the forest. I know that this may be of limited value to any potential practitioner travelling from afar, but given the daily commuting distances of some of the professionals of the part, there is surely room for the much vaunted
yet somewhat elusive 'social inclusivity' of locals who can help.

Where there's a will, there's a way.
Fine, but you're missing a significant point. Most stalkers don't have the necessary competence to meet or exceed FLS cull targets.
Regards
JCS
 
I agree with most of sliders post.

Really can't see it being vaible, when u speak to lease holders it's often themselves shooting much of the cull.

FF a good reply but I'd say ur reply actually backs sliders point in some aspects.
U admit it self user 1 of only a few exceeding culls.
Then u state at the end Rowan where recovering by the end of ur lease, does that not prove wot u were doing was working shooting around the cull figure??

I don't think there is any doubt roe will browse on SS it will be a last resort thou.

While I do think UK shooters as generally fairly safe, some places really are just hooching with folk nowadays.
Some of the stories I hear from mates in NZ would out u off hunting full stop, esp during the roar.
Best practice over there isto tie a high Viz to antlers and carry head upside down as hunters do shoot at noises/movements in bushes esp if some antlers sticking above them.
 
Victoria is a little state here and alone in square miles is 87,816.6 mi² WA is one million sq.

The UK in square miles. 93,627.8 mi²

Pop 26 million Vic

Pop 67 million UK

This huge population that is only growing is a huge part of your problem. I read in an above post where a Park or something in England is of 2 million acres and the common man cant get a go at it.
I shudder at the thought and with the advent of the modern internet it seems that there are many many that have never grown up with a gun that are swelling the ranks in both countries.
More hunters to share the land area.

Victoria alone has 18 million acres of public deer hunting lands and for a fifty buck game licence its open slather here.

I feel for the genuine members that don`t have a decent permission and have to pay the 500 quid (caberslash)
Population
• 2020 estimate25,691,100[6] (51st)
• 2016 census23,401,892[7]
• Density3.3/km2 (8.5/sq mi) (192nd)
 
I think this is a really good debate.

The principle of using public land to widen access to fieldsports is a very positive one, in my opinion. The practicalities of making that happen are difficult but I cannot imagine that they are insurmountable.

One suspects that an American or NZ-style free-for-all approach would be a disaster in our overpopulated country. However, surely there is a middle way?

FLS (FCS previously) has experimented with using amateurs through its RDMPs. It has also provided access in the past by using (and charging for) rangers as professional stalking guides. The idea is therefore not entirely foreign (or unpalatable) to that organisation (of which I am a fan, incidentally).

Perhaps the development, extension and/or reinstatement of these schemes would be a route to pursue, rather than the iconoclastic version?

Kind regards,

Carl
 
A slight 'sleight of statistics' going on here :-| :lol:

50 rangers culling 30,000 animals would be 'the equivalent' of 600 a man per year...:-|

But as we are on the "numbers game", is shooting the equivalent of one deer every 66 acres the same as shooting one in every 66 acre block of land? A doe with two calves present representing the population culled out of 200 acres ... :-|
 
I think this is a really good debate.

The principle of using public land to widen access to fieldsports is a very positive one, in my opinion. The practicalities of making that happen are difficult but I cannot imagine that they are insurmountable.

One suspects that an American or NZ-style free-for-all approach would be a disaster in our overpopulated country. However, surely there is a middle way?

FLS (FCS previously) has experimented with using amateurs through its RDMPs. It has also provided access in the past by using (and charging for) rangers as professional stalking guides. The idea is therefore not entirely foreign (or unpalatable) to that organisation (of which I am a fan, incidentally).

Perhaps the development, extension and/or reinstatement of these schemes would be a route to pursue, rather than the iconoclastic version?

Kind regards,

Carl
Middle ground would be the NZ ballot block system. Bid for a day or week or whatever for a block, go in do your business and then **** off, gives people free or affordable access to hunting whilst being safe and allowing cull figures to be met. I think this would work best in Scotland due to the size of ground but no reason the wider UK couldnt role it out.
 
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