Disappointing results and a lot of soot

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charlieboy-shooter

charlieboy-shooter

Well-Known Member
Hi Guys,

Very disappointed with the results at the range after a much anticipated wait to test some home loads with N160 in 6.5x55 and N133 in .222rem and would be very grateful on some views.

I have previously posted about the 6.5x55 Tikka with 20" barrel and N160 and equally spent hours searching threads on the two. I had previously tested some loads but used an expander for the 1st time ( Sierra 120gr Pro Hunters) and Sellier & Bellot primers. New Norma cases but old stock

Results on that day was lots of soot on the cases. (44-46.5gr loads, C.O.L 3.310" , 1/2 Lee factory crimp.) due to the expander and possible primers (1st ever use of S&B) I decided on the following.

Attempt 2. No expander and CCI primers. New Norma cases ( as before), same 120gr Pro Hunters. Again 1/2 lee factory crimp.
Loaded from 44.6 gr - 45.9gr N160. C.O.L 3.00"

Results. All sooty again throughout the range. Lot of soot in groove around the rim. Best group 7/8" on 2 loads @121 yds.
( I would have hoped under the range circumstances to shoot a smaller group ). So it's probably safe to say it isn't poor use of the expander or S&B primers..
As previously mentioned the published data varies for N160 in 6.5x55
Lee reloading die literature 43.8 - 45.7gr
Modern reloading manual 2nd Ed. 45.8 -50.7gr

Based on the soot, conflicting load data and clearly no signs of high pressure I'm now thinking moving to use the modern reloading data. i.e. 46 gr up.

However, other than having to clean the chamber, etc should I be overly worried about the soot ?


For the .222rem I stopped at 22..0 gr N133 with 50gr Vmax and the groups are shocking. However I haven't done a deep clean so to speak on the barrel for a while now.. so my thoughts on that one is. Good clean and keep going up the load range as well. Max published data is between 23.0gr -24.gr depending on source. ( although 50gr Vmax with H322, still shoots great but going to run out soon).

As I say views and suggestions on best way to move forward much appreciated, could try other powder but not just yet. As I'm stuck in for 2 weeks ( well 12 days now) as other half has had a raging temperature and stuff. So, I may as well load some cartridges. Other than that I suppose I could start decorating with that paint I bought way way back but I'm not that bored yet.

Thanks
 
Last edited:
What are your velocities?

I know different folk do reloading differently. My first thing is generally to load a series from bottom to top of the book-range in increment at the coarse end of the range - probably 0.5 gr for the 6.5 and 0.3gr for the .222 - a single cartridge of each - and check the velocites. That gives me some idea of the max charge and what will give me a desirable velocity, as well as a hint of where a useful node might be.

The soot on the 6.5 cases possibly speaks of low pressure - but by the data you give, you do seem to be at the lower end of the charge-range.

H322 seems to have a burn-rate closer to N120 than N133 - so a quicker powder might be an option if charges up to maximum of N133 are no better for accuracy.
 
Published load data is only a guide. Real world testing is the way to go.
1. Chronograph the loads to allow you to compare theory to practice.
2. Work loads up in steps looking at chrono velocity achieved, pressure signs, sooting & group sizes.
(with care you can check for pressure, velocity & grouping at the same time). Five shot groups to check grouping is better than three.
3. Change only one variable at a time. Prove each one properly before jumping to the next.

6.5x55 is notorious for smoky cases if loads are even slightly slow on pressure build up, so primers can make a difference. Also as loads are increased, a point often arises when case sooting disappears. So an incremented load work up is needed IMHO.
 
N160 and 6.5x55 are notorious for sooting.
Make sure you have enough bullet in the neck( usual advice at least calibre depth, ie 6.7mm) and if this doesn't help, more powder. A primer change may also be worth considering as Yorric mentioned.
 
charlieboy-shooter said:
Hi Guys,

Very disappointed with the results at the range after a much anticipated wait to test some home loads with N160 in 6.5x55 and N133 in .222rem and would be very grateful on some views.

I have previously posted about the 6.5x55 Tikka with 20" barrel and N160 and equally spent hours searching threads on the two. I had previously tested some loads but used an expander for the 1st time ( Sierra 120gr Pro Hunters) and Sellier & Bellot primers. New Norma cases but old stock

Results on that day was lots of soot on the cases. (44-46.5gr loads, C.O.L 3.310" , 1/2 Lee factory crimp.) due to the expander and possible primers (1st ever use of S&B) I decided on the following.

Attempt 2. No expander and CCI primers. New Norma cases ( as before), same 120gr Pro Hunters. Again 1/2 lee factory crimp.
Loaded from 44.6 gr - 45.9gr N160. C.O.L 3.00"

Results. All sooty again throughout the range. Lot of soot in groove around the rim. Best group 7/8" on 2 loads @121 yds.
( I would have hoped under the range circumstances to shoot a smaller group ). So it's probably safe to say it isn't poor use of the expander or S&B primers..
As previously mentioned the published data varies for N160 in 6.5x55
Lee reloading die literature 43.8 - 45.7gr
Modern reloading manual 2nd Ed. 45.8 -50.7gr

Based on the soot, conflicting load data and clearly no signs of high pressure I'm now thinking moving to use the modern reloading data. i.e. 46 gr up.

However, other than having to clean the chamber, etc should I be overly worried about the soot ?


For the .222rem I stopped at 22..0 gr N133 with 50gr Vmax and the groups are shocking. However I haven't done a deep clean so to speak on the barrel for a while now.. so my thoughts on that one is. Good clean and keep going up the load range as well. Max published data is between 23.0gr -24.gr depending on source. ( although 50gr Vmax with H322, still shoots great but going to run out soon).

As I say views and suggestions on best way to move forward much appreciated, could try other powder but not just yet. As I'm stuck in for 2 weeks ( well 12 days now) as other half has had a raging temperature and stuff. So, I may as well load some cartridges. Other than that I suppose I could start decorating with that paint I bought way way back but I'm not that bored yet.

Thanks
Click to expand...
I know that a lot of people quote V160 as the 'go to' powder for the 6.5x55SE. However in my experience it worked for 140gr and heavier bullets, but I also experienced soot when I used 120gr and 100gr bullets. I changed powder to IMR 4350 and got much cleaner burn, that was some years ago.
Currently in my new 6.5x55SE with 20" barrel I am load testing with RL16 and 120gr bullets. Initially I was getting soot but as I worked up the load the soot decreased. Now I am getting very good results, clean burn and 2700fps with SD 11 and below.
 
Hi Guys,

I have previously changed the primer from Sellier & Bellot to CCI. Embarrassed to admit, but I do not own a chronograph. Have to date, relied on case/ primer checks and group sizes and always starting low and working up.
Interesting that 140gr worked.
I have come across several threads with N160 and 6.5x55 with soot issues. Guessing my 20" barrel does not help.

Thank you all so far for the replies.
 
Sooting happens when the combustion gas is not adequately sealed within the breech & escapes between the case & the chamber wall.
Sooting is not directly influenced by barrel length. So don't worry about it.
Sure a 20" barrel length will result in slower muzzle velocities than the optimum 24 to 26" length barrels.
It's all about how fast the pressure builds up and what the peak pressure is. Brass condition (state of work hardening) also is involved. -- Annealing case neck & shoulders helps obturation allowing the case to seal the gas in the case & chamber.
Barrel length can influence the choice of powder. -- Short barrels need faster burning powders than longer ones to ensure full powder burn within the barrel length.
Ian
 
I’ve got a Tikka (22”) and a chronograph, so think that your loads are too low. Sooty cases have to be down to squib loads rather than barrel length.

My results …. (120gr Sierra SP - WW cases - N160 - 45.0 @ 2550, 46.0 @ 2630, 47.0 @ 2670 [erratic spreads] then improving with 48.0 @ 2740, 49.0 @ 2830, 50.0 @ 2870.

Switching to heavier Lapua cases & throttling back to 48.0 N160 (MAX in my Speer #13 manual) gave 2800 fps average with a narrower MV spread (for what that’s worth). I would persevere with N160 which is fast enough. I now use much slower numbers [IMR 4831 and IMR 7828] in my 6.5x55. :)
 
I won't comment on the 6.5 as I don't load for it and others will help but the .222 is odd if your current powder (322) is working well, even if the barrel is heavily fouled.

The .222 is a very unfussy cartridge to load for and failing to get even adequate performance is almost quite hard and almost an accomplishment :)

I personally would use N130 for the 50g and 53g in the .222rem but N133 it certainly is not outside the ballpark of working well. I doubt it is the fault of the powder. I would not go to N120 either for the deuce for 50g Vmax. N130 or N133 will give a more desirable case fill. In any case, N133 should be fine.

22grains of N133 is getting fairly closed to a compressed load in the little .222 case so you should not be anywhere near the realms of undercharging and failing to get adequate obturation which would/could result in gases escaping and causing your soot issues. Do you have pictures of both 6.5 and .222 cases so we can see what you mean? I mean all cases will have small amounts of filth around the necks post firing but if you are getting consistent soot lower down the case walls towards the head, then that is not right.

Your seating depth is in the right ballpark? A good point to start is about 30 thou back from the rifling or use standard book data?

All the evidence points towards too small a powder charge, although without a chrono to confirm absolute numbers, you are slightly peeing in the wind. You could shoot again at 200yds for example to see what the drop is which would confirm if your muzzle velocity is in the approx right ballpark. If it drops off the bottom of the target, then that would confirm low muzzle velocity and would confirm our suspicions. If you are seeing significantly more than a 3inch drop or so at 200yds, your muzzle vel is too low.

I suppose I am thinking along the lines of what is your powder charge weighing method? Are your scales known good? Do you shine a flashlight in to the necks of the cases post charging to ensure you have the approx right fill? Beam scales or some old electronics? The fact you are seeing issues with both cartridges makes me think one of the processes in your reloading procedure is possibly out of kilter. Correct powder charge would be my initial concern.

Next would be calipers and trim length. I assume you have not trimmed away most of the necks? Sounds daft I know but I am trying to think along the lines of your reloading processes rather than cartridge specific issues.
 
Cottis said:
22grains of N133 is getting fairly closed to a compressed load in the little .222 case so you should not be anywhere near the realms of undercharging and failing to get adequate obturation which would/could result in gases escaping and causing your soot issues.
Click to expand...
Is there soot on the .222 cases? The way I read the post, soot was just on the 6.5's.
 
good afternoon,when I had sooty cases, Winchester and ppu ,lapua never a problem,i started using fed 215 and cci magnum primers and the problem went away, in my rifle the cci primed loads shoot 1.3" left of the fed 215 but same height with the same loads and cases.
 
Cottis said:
I won't comment on the 6.5 as I don't load for it and others will help but the .222 is odd if your current powder (322) is working well, even if the barrel is heavily fouled.

The .222 is a very unfussy cartridge to load for and failing to get even adequate performance is almost quite hard and almost an accomplishment :)

I personally would use N130 for the 50g and 53g in the .222rem but N133 it certainly is not outside the ballpark of working well. I doubt it is the fault of the powder. I would not go to N120 either for the deuce for 50g Vmax. N130 or N133 will give a more desirable case fill. In any case, N133 should be fine.

22grains of N133 is getting fairly closed to a compressed load in the little .222 case so you should not be anywhere near the realms of undercharging and failing to get adequate obturation which would/could result in gases escaping and causing your soot issues. Do you have pictures of both 6.5 and .222 cases so we can see what you mean? I mean all cases will have small amounts of filth around the necks post firing but if you are getting consistent soot lower down the case walls towards the head, then that is not right.

Your seating depth is in the right ballpark? A good point to start is about 30 thou back from the rifling or use standard book data?

All the evidence points towards too small a powder charge, although without a chrono to confirm absolute numbers, you are slightly peeing in the wind. You could shoot again at 200yds for example to see what the drop is which would confirm if your muzzle velocity is in the approx right ballpark. If it drops off the bottom of the target, then that would confirm low muzzle velocity and would confirm our suspicions. If you are seeing significantly more than a 3inch drop or so at 200yds, your muzzle vel is too low.

I suppose I am thinking along the lines of what is your powder charge weighing method? Are your scales known good? Do you shine a flashlight in to the necks of the cases post charging to ensure you have the approx right fill? Beam scales or some old electronics? The fact you are seeing issues with both cartridges makes me think one of the processes in your reloading procedure is possibly out of kilter. Correct powder charge would be my initial concern.

Next would be calipers and trim length. I assume you have not trimmed away most of the necks? Sounds daft I know but I am trying to think along the lines of your reloading processes rather than cartridge specific issues.
Click to expand...

Hi,

Sorry, I shouldn't have included the 2 calibre's in 1 post. The sooting issue is just on the 6.5x55 with N160.

Yes, to date my .222 has proven to be unfussy with all factory loads, even with 2004 dated Remington factory load.
It just seems to be with N133. Tried but not extensively with 52gr Amax a while ago with N133 and wasn't happy with results but didn't persist. Powder is fine, use for with my .308 and it's very good if I do my bit.
Regarding reloading.
The .222 cases are trimmed to 1.6900" have checked caliper and all seems fine.
I weigh each charge and use a digital scale and then beam scale to double check and recheck if variation. Possibly OTT, But I want me to be the weakest link not the cartridge.
Seating depth is as H322 charge 2.1300", although for N133 manual has a slightly shorter C.O.L I had played around with the C.O.L in past but to not great effect so went back to book length (H322).
The cases I used this time was once fired Remington cases from the 2004 Remingtons mentioned above.
Have some other brands of once fired cases to try but my current batch of cases for my .222, H322 combo will be 4 x fired so don't see point in using these..
 
finnbear270 said:
How old is your brass / how many firings?
Click to expand...

In both scenarios the cases are either New - 6.5 ( but old stock from shop but in a Norma sealed bag) or Once fired - .222. From 2004 dated Remington factory load.
So copper age hardens but does brass? Or does it just work harden. Something I need to look into.
 
When I had the sooty case problem, I abandoned lands chasing, set the bullet to factory standard oal and used a Lee Factory Crimp die. All the sooting disappeared, velocity increased slightly, groups tightened and extreme spread of velocity reduced.
 
N160 is too slow for a 125gr bullet & not in fact recommended for ANY .308 load by V-V themselves:

vv308.webp
 
charlieboy-shooter said:
Hi Guys,

Very disappointed with the results at the range after a much anticipated wait to test some home loads with N160 in 6.5x55 and N133 in .222rem and would be very grateful on some views.

I have previously posted about the 6.5x55 Tikka with 20" barrel and N160 and equally spent hours searching threads on the two. I had previously tested some loads but used an expander for the 1st time ( Sierra 120gr Pro Hunters) and Sellier & Bellot primers. New Norma cases but old stock

Results on that day was lots of soot on the cases. (44-46.5gr loads, C.O.L 3.310" , 1/2 Lee factory crimp.) due to the expander and possible primers (1st ever use of S&B) I decided on the following.

Attempt 2. No expander and CCI primers. New Norma cases ( as before), same 120gr Pro Hunters. Again 1/2 lee factory crimp.
Loaded from 44.6 gr - 45.9gr N160. C.O.L 3.00"

Results. All sooty again throughout the range. Lot of soot in groove around the rim. Best group 7/8" on 2 loads @121 yds.
( I would have hoped under the range circumstances to shoot a smaller group ). So it's probably safe to say it isn't poor use of the expander or S&B primers..
As previously mentioned the published data varies for N160 in 6.5x55
Lee reloading die literature 43.8 - 45.7gr
Modern reloading manual 2nd Ed. 45.8 -50.7gr

Based on the soot, conflicting load data and clearly no signs of high pressure I'm now thinking moving to use the modern reloading data. i.e. 46 gr up.

However, other than having to clean the chamber, etc should I be overly worried about the soot ?


For the .222rem I stopped at 22..0 gr N133 with 50gr Vmax and the groups are shocking. However I haven't done a deep clean so to speak on the barrel for a while now.. so my thoughts on that one is. Good clean and keep going up the load range as well. Max published data is between 23.0gr -24.gr depending on source. ( although 50gr Vmax with H322, still shoots great but going to run out soon).

As I say views and suggestions on best way to move forward much appreciated, could try other powder but not just yet. As I'm stuck in for 2 weeks ( well 12 days now) as other half has had a raging temperature and stuff. So, I may as well load some cartridges. Other than that I suppose I could start decorating with that paint I bought way way back but I'm not that bored yet.

Thanks
Click to expand...
6.5 load one of each in modern loads, work up in 0.5 to max or pressure sign whichever first. Once you see clean cases you have your start load for batches of 3 to 5 or whatever you want. Less waste all round.
 
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