Drathaar vs GWP
- Thread starter Bigron321
- Start date
Bigron321
Well-Known Member
I thought they were recognised separately and if you called a Drathaar a GWP you were a very silly man?
Or am I a very silly man?
Who knows?!
Scapegoat
Well-Known Member
Yep. Drahthaar literally translated does indeed mean wirehair. But........ apparently a Deutsch Drahthaar is not the same as a wire-haired pointer.
Here's an article on the difference.......To summarise, the Germans put performance above form in the bloodlines.
projectupland.com
Here's an article on the difference.......To summarise, the Germans put performance above form in the bloodlines.
The Difference Between a Deutsch-Drahthaar and a German Wirehaired Pointer
A look into the ongoing struggle of Deutsch-Drahthaar and German Wirehaired Pointer owners . . .
projectupland.com
sportingspaniels
Well-Known Member
Are there any DD in the country ?, I should imagine there will be ? The DD looks a real performance animal to me and may not be the best for the average man over here. It seems to me that the average uk dog man seeks out the best performance dogs on the continent because he wants the best. Then he finds the best is a hard animal to live with so then proceeds to water down the breeding with a bang average dog from over here. He would probably have been better off, and the breed be better off, if he had got one from over here in the first place.
Wolverine
Well-Known Member
The Verein Deutsch Drahthaar is run along the same lines as the Verein Hirschmann and other clubs in Germany/Europe.
The dogs should not be bred from unless they pass recognised tests.
Recognised by judges that have experience and have actually worked and passed their dogs at this level as well.
The Drahthaar has many tests to pass.
The VZP,HZP,the now banned Härtenachweis(one of the main reasons drahthaar are sharper dogs) and numerous health test as well as conformation to breed standard.
If any of these tests are not passed the dogs won’t be bred.
Please note-conformation to breed standard.
ALL THINGS ARE REQUIRED.......
1.Working performance
2.Health
3.Form
Not one goes above the other.
When breeding a breed to type this is what is required.
The problem here is people want the real McCoy without having to do the work to pass the tests.
They then state they have a direct German import and breed it without having done the tests required.
They are not breeding a Drahthaar.
The Drahthaar breeders I know would not allow a dog to come to such people.
As Sportingspaniels correctly states,they should not be watered down with dogs that do not meet these requirements as it does the breed no favours whatsoever.
The issue is that people think they know better when in reality they only ruin breeds.
There is a reason the drahthaar is sought after.
The original and best always is.
A German wirehaired pointer in the UK is a dog that is NOT the Deutsch Drahthaar that I know and have seen work many times.
Having seen plenty of both.
Same as many other breeds that come to the UK.
All the best
George
The dogs should not be bred from unless they pass recognised tests.
Recognised by judges that have experience and have actually worked and passed their dogs at this level as well.
The Drahthaar has many tests to pass.
The VZP,HZP,the now banned Härtenachweis(one of the main reasons drahthaar are sharper dogs) and numerous health test as well as conformation to breed standard.
If any of these tests are not passed the dogs won’t be bred.
Please note-conformation to breed standard.
ALL THINGS ARE REQUIRED.......
1.Working performance
2.Health
3.Form
Not one goes above the other.
When breeding a breed to type this is what is required.
The problem here is people want the real McCoy without having to do the work to pass the tests.
They then state they have a direct German import and breed it without having done the tests required.
They are not breeding a Drahthaar.
The Drahthaar breeders I know would not allow a dog to come to such people.
As Sportingspaniels correctly states,they should not be watered down with dogs that do not meet these requirements as it does the breed no favours whatsoever.
The issue is that people think they know better when in reality they only ruin breeds.
There is a reason the drahthaar is sought after.
The original and best always is.
A German wirehaired pointer in the UK is a dog that is NOT the Deutsch Drahthaar that I know and have seen work many times.
Having seen plenty of both.
Same as many other breeds that come to the UK.
All the best
George
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Yep. Drahthaar literally translated does indeed mean wirehair. But........ apparently a Deutsch Drahthaar is not the same as a wire-haired pointer.
Here's an article on the difference.......To summarise, the Germans put performance above form in the bloodlines.
The Difference Between a Deutsch-Drahthaar and a German Wirehaired Pointer
A look into the ongoing struggle of Deutsch-Drahthaar and German Wirehaired Pointer owners . . .
So reading that, if you’re in the UK, chances are the dog came from continental bloodlines in the recent past, so is probably a drahthaar.
But it appears to be such a tiny semantic difference...
I think what you’re saying is that the difference largely lies in the intensity of the training.
For me, the starting point would be the pedigree. When we talk of 'breeds' this is ALL about Nature and has nothing to do with Nurture - Nurture and testing can change 'type' or influence 'strain' but can it change breed names? Certain global 'breed clubs' may well have very stringent rules regarding breeding plans within the 'breed clubs' closed register but you are still starting with a raw material that has a pedigree/family tree. Go back far enough and you will find common bloodlines. Yes, a 'spilt' may have occurred but there will be common (if distant) ancestry if they are THE SAME BREED.
If they are not THE SAME BREED, then you will not find common ancestry.
Breed clubs with strict breeding plan rules and closed registers will certainly 'shape' and improve the breed but you have to ask of the source of their material - regardless of 5, 10 or 15 generations back.
What is the definition of a 'Breed'? - answer that question (and there is more than one answer) and you will answer the opening post.
If they are not THE SAME BREED, then you will not find common ancestry.
Breed clubs with strict breeding plan rules and closed registers will certainly 'shape' and improve the breed but you have to ask of the source of their material - regardless of 5, 10 or 15 generations back.
What is the definition of a 'Breed'? - answer that question (and there is more than one answer) and you will answer the opening post.
CarlW
Well-Known Member
For our (great?) grandparents, 'breed' was probably a valuable shorthand for a set of characteristics (be they physical or behavioural) that a dog so-described would be likely to possess. Unfortunately, that is no longer so: many 'herders' can no longer herd, many 'terriers' will no longer go to ground, and many 'hounds' will no longer hunt.
Apart from those breeds with very restrictive performance-based breeding programmes (as referred to by @Keith Edmunds), 'breed' is now simply proof of parentage rather than proof of capability.
We therefore see splits of those breeds into working and show and pet lines. The working lines then split again into sports/trial lines and shoot/farm/work lines, or whatever you want to call them.
I don't know when or if those lines become a different breed. Personally, I don't care any more. Dogs are such a mess nowadays that - irrespective of the pedigree - unless I see both parents working to a standard that impresses me, I'm not interested in their offspring. And, even then, it's a gamble. Champions rarely throw champions...
Apart from those breeds with very restrictive performance-based breeding programmes (as referred to by @Keith Edmunds), 'breed' is now simply proof of parentage rather than proof of capability.
We therefore see splits of those breeds into working and show and pet lines. The working lines then split again into sports/trial lines and shoot/farm/work lines, or whatever you want to call them.
I don't know when or if those lines become a different breed. Personally, I don't care any more. Dogs are such a mess nowadays that - irrespective of the pedigree - unless I see both parents working to a standard that impresses me, I'm not interested in their offspring. And, even then, it's a gamble. Champions rarely throw champions...
Good question Carl - when does a line or strain become a separate breed?? I agree the answer can be academic, as long as each individual knows exactly what he wants and does the correct research to ensure that he gets it, or stands the best chance in getting it - it doesn't really matter.
CarlW
Well-Known Member
I imagine the answer is generally a political one rather than a scientific or genetic one. A line perhaps becomes a breed when two groups of dog people have seen their relationship reach the point where they stop even pretending to be civil to one another...
jimmy milnes
Well-Known Member
In a nutshell....
Popularity is a breeds undoing.
Popularity is a breeds undoing.
sportingspaniels
Well-Known Member
I want a 200 mph Ferrari. But it’s got to have a decent boot for the shopping. And room inside for the kids. And a towbar for the caravan. And it needs to be cheap to insure. And it needs to do 50mpg. And it needs to be very comfortable and relaxing to drive. So really I need a ford mondeo.
No. I think we all have mondeos, but some of us can drive like Louis Hamilton...
... I am not one of these!
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sportingspaniels
Well-Known Member
I bet everyone of the kids who race around the library car park at night, in their £600 corser’s ,think they can drive like Hamilton too !!!
8x57
Distinguished Member
I think you meant corsa.
But there again perhaps they were coursing the car park.
jimmy milnes
Well-Known Member
Never mind Hamilton James Hunt was the man.... He knew how to live a life..
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