Fenn Traps Question

[Roestalker39]

Wow - this really got out of hand quickly.

Essentially there are two options here either do it or don’t - judge each on their merit.

Out of interest Roestalker, if the question had been ‘am I allowed to get blind drunk and drive home?’ would your advice be, no because it’s illegal or would you say ‘absolutely fine because I know someone who does it and what’s the likelihood of being caught - anyone who says otherwise is a complete idiot and we shouldn’t be letting anyone tell us what to do’?

Annoyingly, the AIHTS is a European fur trapping legislation so our use is an unintended consequence. The requirement is for the target animal to die in (I think) 90 seconds or less and fenns don’t always do that according to the scientists. When you see one of the new options actually go off - the difference is quite clear.

To clarify - you can use fenns for rats and squirrels perfectly legally but you are running a risk of you catch a stoat (and are caught).

So are you really comparing drink driving to using a fenn trap which is perfectly LEGAL?? Have a word with yourself

 

[Dan Newcombe]

So is driving a car and so is drinking but if you do both at the same time - illegal.

You can shoot deer with a .22LR - but it’s illegal.

The law is quite clear (once again for RoeStalker) - it is illegal to trap stoats in a fenn trap regardless of it was not the intention. Once a stoat is trapped the fenn you set for rats / squirrels becomes illegal and your defence that you didn’t want to trap a stoat goes out the window.

I know it’s unlikely but what if it’s one of Cwiss Packhams admirers who finds the trap - it will be plastered everywhere, they don’t even really care if it’s true but a stoat in the trap is a big own goal.

Some people, knowing and understanding the risks may well do it and are likely to get away with it but it’s risky.

Shall we just compromise and say you can do it but there is a risk involved?

 

[shakey jake]

the big thing here is intent, if you carry out an honest risk assesment and find no evidence of stoats and document your logic a stoat is an accidental by catch, if you set to catch a stoat with no paper trail you could get done. for a car example you go driving and kill a cyclist, if you were driving sensible and sober you should be ok, if you ram a cyclist thats annoying you, you will get done. accidental by catch does happen, young rabbits in mark 4s or in a break back rat trap, voles in a mouse trap. have a paper trail whenever you try to kill anything remotely

 

[Roestalker39]

the big thing here is intent, if you carry out an honest risk assesment and find no evidence of stoats and document your logic a stoat is an accidental by catch, if you set to catch a stoat with no paper trail you could get done. for a car example you go driving and kill a cyclist, if you were driving sensible and sober you should be ok, if you ram a cyclist thats annoying you, you will get done. accidental by catch does happen, young rabbits in mark 4s or in a break back rat trap, voles in a mouse trap. have a paper trail whenever you try to kill anything remotely

^^^^^ exactly this !!

 

[Dan Newcombe]

Afraid not but let’s just leave it at that

 

[Roestalker39]

Afraid not but let’s just leave it at that

I didn’t know you were a professor of law too ! You are a man of many talents

 

[countrryboy]

I didn’t know you were a professor of law too ! You are a man of many talents

Good to know u are a professor of law
Amazing how u can troll a topic as simple as this.

Is there any area in UK where stoats are not present??
I mind an old story about a Yorkshire grouse keeper moving to a Scottish moor, mibbee 30 odd years ago before that was as common.
The young local beat keeper told him they never trapped stoats on moor as none, the Yorkshire keeper built a trap in the dyke behind his house and caught a stoat within days.
I doubt there is many areas in UK u could 100% certain no stoats are present


Dan's advice is 100% correct almost every estate in Scotland is following it, and I bet the few that arent it's out off desperation as new traps haven't arrived yet.

U can argue all u want but having to expend the time, vehicle wear and tear and fuel to check a trap line which is not even legally capable of catching the main problem species is just bonkers.
And that's ignoring the very real legal problems and vicarious liability in Scotland.

I take it roe stalker u also know in Scotland Snh can withdraw the GL to any person or estate they SUSPECT of committing wildlife crime, doesnae even have to be proven.
Also a good way to lose ur SFP, I know 1 moor lost about 100k ish over wildlife crimes that they got off with in court. And that was years ago.


Be interesting to see how they get rail traps to work with DoC traps, I think they have to make boxes to a very specific size with baffles to direct the stoats head into the correct place.
I doubt they will be just as effective as Fenns were.
In NZ where DoCs where invented traps only checked weekly if even that

 

[Roestalker39]

Good to know u are a professor of law
Amazing how u can troll a topic as simple as this.

Is there any area in UK where stoats are not present??
I mind an old story about a Yorkshire grouse keeper moving to a Scottish moor, mibbee 30 odd years ago before that was as common.
The young local beat keeper told him they never trapped stoats on moor as none, the Yorkshire keeper built a trap in the dyke behind his house and caught a stoat within days.
I doubt there is many areas in UK u could 100% certain no stoats are present


Dan's advice is 100% correct almost every estate in Scotland is following it, and I bet the few that arent it's out off desperation as new traps haven't arrived yet.

U can argue all u want but having to expend the time, vehicle wear and tear and fuel to check a trap line which is not even legally capable of catching the main problem species is just bonkers.
And that's ignoring the very real legal problems and vicarious liability in Scotland.

I take it roe stalker u also know in Scotland Snh can withdraw the GL to any person or estate they SUSPECT of committing wildlife crime, doesnae even have to be proven.
Also a good way to lose ur SFP, I know 1 moor lost about 100k ish over wildlife crimes that they got off with in court. And that was years ago.


Be interesting to see how they get rail traps to work with DoC traps, I think they have to make boxes to a very specific size with baffles to direct the stoats head into the correct place.
I doubt they will be just as effective as Fenns were.
In NZ where DoCs where invented traps only checked weekly if even that

Spoken like a true basc boy , “ give up or they might be Nasty “

 

[Dan Newcombe]

This is amazing!

 

[Roestalker39]

This is amazing!

whats more amazing is comparing drink driving to a completely legal trap

 

[Dan Newcombe]

You are an odd sort of creature aren’t you RoeStalker.

Are you forming the basis of your advice on the fact that you don’t like the law? Or is it because you actually think you know and understand the rules?

I am however very intrigued, what do you think my other talents are other than knowing the new law on fenn traps? I’ve never had someone take so much interest in my skill set.

 

[countrryboy]

No one here has claimed the trap is illegal, just how u set it.
Which has always been the case, if u read the rules for setting them

Do u still set them on top of fence posts???
That is a more similar thing rather than drink driving ( althou pretty sure Fenns were invented long after setting traps like that was banned.)
But that's all this is a change in the way ur allowed to use them

But either way u have to give someone asking the correct legal advice if they choose to ignore it that's up to them but atleast the decision they've made is on the correct info.
Telling someone just to carry on as normal is just wrong, I hardly think ur posts on here set any legal precedent.

How the hell can u turn this into an anti basc post?? Just beyond belief

 

[arron]

I have seen a fair amount still alive , check them every day , if there left unchecked they will be dead !! I have caught tonns of them , not saying YOU leave them unchecked but they dont die reyt quickly ,

 

[Reebear]

OK guys thanks for your input think we better leave it here.

 

[Cullachie]

Fenn Mark4s are still 100% legal for weasels and squirrels - as confirmed by the Spring Traps Approval Order.

It is only in the UK that they cannot be used (intentionally ) on stoats. This is an anomaly that occurred because DEFRA messed up the negotiations regarding the AIHTS, Agreement on International Humane Trapping Standards. DEFRA didnt realise that the Canadian stoat is a different species from the European stoat. Now the agreement is done and dusted, it cannot be cjanged!

​

 

[Dan Newcombe]

Please don’t start this up again - Roe Botherer will have a stroke!

 

[Boosh]

It probs would be worth looking at from a different angle now though as we are not in the old Europe anymore, and the primary driving force behind the abolition of the Fenn mk 4 was due to stoats in Europe being Ermine (fur crop) rather than vermin in the UK.
What do the main advisory bodies that are supposed to fight our corner do that we pay annual insurance to?
All getting a bit BBC license fee now.

 

[foxdropper]

Just to throw a spanner in the trap I’ve caught stoats ,pre ban in some very strange places from beams in barns to behind the sink in a household .Stoats are as agile as a rat and run up trees regular to evade dogs here in the South ,pre ban of course .
I think the ban is ludicrous but a ban is a ban no matter the opinion of a lay trapper.

 

[Cullachie]

Sure, but there is a case to start lobbying the government now that we are out of the EU.
Please read up on how this situation arose

Agreement on International Humane Trapping Standards (AIHTS) - Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust

www.gwct.org.uk

 

[enfieldspares]

I assume it is still lawful to shoot a stoat if you see one?