Roestalker39
Well-Known Member
I think it’s the same in an industry / trade in life , some are good , some are just ok and there’s a few bad ones out there it just makes life harder if you do get a bad one .
Firearms Enquiry Officer - I totally despair of some.
- Thread starter 8x57
- Start date
EMcC
Well-Known Member
That's not true, some are good ex police officers but got the chance of diversity so took it.
Some are fully served Police Officers but like the idea of working within the service they know so, instead of retiring completely,they take on the job of FEO.
8x57
Distinguished Member
In the force area where I live most of the FEO's have been retired ex police officers. The retired police officers have usually been those with relevant knowledge normally gained from being shooters themselves and generally (not always) have been much better at the job than those who have never served. I think that this is because they have acquired the necessary communication and diplomacy skills to deal with people while at the same time garnering information without being oppressive or intimidating. A good FEO is like the old village bobby, he was interrogating you without you even realising it. 
Quite possible if they were Baikal single barrels
Sonicdmb73
Well-Known Member
I have had one or two clangers over the years.
A recent one was about a land check for a larger calibre rifle. They said it needed it and land was checked at renewal anyway. I said no it wasn’t and really first I have heard.
By the way if you refuse I can find another piece of land and shoot on there anyway I have an open ticket. No land check and rifle on certificate.
I have had one or two other questions that made me think. But was it them check on my knowledge or their lack of it on that subject.
I will add though in general for many years my dealings have been good. With good communication. An example being I got a call the other morning. You’ve just told us you disposed of two rifles. Yes. Did you keep the moderators. Yes I am going to replace the rifles. Ok thanks you’d be surprised the number of people who forget and then don’t have them when we check at renewal.
My opinion is that they don’t have formal training but they should. It’s about public safety after all. The staff in general have in my dealings been reasonably knowledgeable and willing to learn. When you throw them a curveball like a wildcat calibre.
A recent one was about a land check for a larger calibre rifle. They said it needed it and land was checked at renewal anyway. I said no it wasn’t and really first I have heard.
By the way if you refuse I can find another piece of land and shoot on there anyway I have an open ticket. No land check and rifle on certificate.
I have had one or two other questions that made me think. But was it them check on my knowledge or their lack of it on that subject.
I will add though in general for many years my dealings have been good. With good communication. An example being I got a call the other morning. You’ve just told us you disposed of two rifles. Yes. Did you keep the moderators. Yes I am going to replace the rifles. Ok thanks you’d be surprised the number of people who forget and then don’t have them when we check at renewal.
My opinion is that they don’t have formal training but they should. It’s about public safety after all. The staff in general have in my dealings been reasonably knowledgeable and willing to learn. When you throw them a curveball like a wildcat calibre.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
I’d agree that there’s a lack of training and that dealing with firearms is full of traps and pitfalls for the ignorant or unwary on both sides of the house.
I’ve dealt with a couple of FEO’s that were excellent and couldn’t have been more helpful, but I’ve also had to deal with a couple of right awkward gits that were convinced that their word was law and they were entitled to make it up as they went along, their district, their rules.
Suppose it takes all sorts to keep lawyers busy.
I’ve dealt with a couple of FEO’s that were excellent and couldn’t have been more helpful, but I’ve also had to deal with a couple of right awkward gits that were convinced that their word was law and they were entitled to make it up as they went along, their district, their rules.
Suppose it takes all sorts to keep lawyers busy.
I think it's always best to work with the firrarms dept in a polite manner and understand that they have a job to do but might just not know all the details. Recently i renewed my fac and the feo said i should have filled in a separate form for the air rifle. I politely told her not when it's rated iver 12ftlb it has to go on the fac. She said she would check and that was it
And who would it be that conducted training if it were introduced to forces? The awkward insistent ones or the good ones?
Chanty Wrassler
Well-Known Member
Do you have personal experience of " the vast majority" of " constabularies and FEO's", or is your opinion based on unverified 2nd or 3rd hand anecdotal reports ?
sikamalc
Administrator
I get quite a number of clients asking me to write them a letter or receipt so they can build evidence for their application or variation. In fact I wrote two last week. In most instances the FEO contacts me and asks a few questions regarding the applicant. In most cases the questions are sensible and what one would expect.
I also ran a large firearm collection for a Museum for a good many years and was involved a few times with firearms matters, including a collection of pistols and revolvers from a local murder. The police would sometimes ask me to take round new FEO's to aquaint them with firearms etc, and most seemed reasonably sensible people.
However I have had one FEO who was somewhat awkward and knew little of firearms in my opinion. I have always found Kent Constabulary to be one of the most helpful, and I have a good relationship with my FEO, and have also on the very odd occassion worked with Kent police on a couple of issues. They have a job to do like all of us and if approached the right way and politely it often pays off, providing the request is a reasonable one.
I am not saying the system is perfect, its not, and it needs overhauling in my opinion, however the government insurers and the face less elite in Whitehall are normally the start of stupid laws or restrictions being handed down to the chief constables in my opinion. Which of course has a knock on effect for people such as us.
I also ran a large firearm collection for a Museum for a good many years and was involved a few times with firearms matters, including a collection of pistols and revolvers from a local murder. The police would sometimes ask me to take round new FEO's to aquaint them with firearms etc, and most seemed reasonably sensible people.
However I have had one FEO who was somewhat awkward and knew little of firearms in my opinion. I have always found Kent Constabulary to be one of the most helpful, and I have a good relationship with my FEO, and have also on the very odd occassion worked with Kent police on a couple of issues. They have a job to do like all of us and if approached the right way and politely it often pays off, providing the request is a reasonable one.
I am not saying the system is perfect, its not, and it needs overhauling in my opinion, however the government insurers and the face less elite in Whitehall are normally the start of stupid laws or restrictions being handed down to the chief constables in my opinion. Which of course has a knock on effect for people such as us.
I think that historically it is a combination of the the Home Office and the Police at a policy level which has worked on increasing restrictons for lawful firearms users. It is disingenuous, I think, to suggest that the Chief Constables are merely the passive recipients and enforcers of changes to HO Guides etc.
That being so, or even if we think it's just the Home Office officals who are responsible, one would have to wonder about the outcome of any 'overhaul' which we might consider neceeary - given that the overhaul would be conducted by those same officials; with or without the baneful influence of the Police, depending on what you believe their role is in this area.
sikamalc
Administrator
Oh I have no doubt some chief constables apply these guidelines in their own way, to the point where some may be ridiculous. I agree a level playing field and sensible laws are required across the firearm act. But I agree it would be changed by civil servants who know nothing regarding firearms.
I well remember the expanding ammo business many years back. It is the only time I have managed to get through to someone in Whitehall regarding the blanket ban of expanding rounds. This meant that as stalkers we could not purchase expanding ammunition as it had to be on your FAC. I well remember speaking to this faceless idiot and telling him that they were asking all deer stalkers to break the law, as it is illegal to shoot deer without an expanding round. His remarks were typical of a civil servant in that it was now the law so suck it up!
A few weeks later the penny dropped and in Kent we were issued with a sticker to put on our FAC. I received about 6 of them! Now they have taken this off the tickets. How much did that fiasco cost the taxpayer?
But I speak as I find and in Kent they have always been reasonable to me, and most others that I know off.
I well remember the expanding ammo business many years back. It is the only time I have managed to get through to someone in Whitehall regarding the blanket ban of expanding rounds. This meant that as stalkers we could not purchase expanding ammunition as it had to be on your FAC. I well remember speaking to this faceless idiot and telling him that they were asking all deer stalkers to break the law, as it is illegal to shoot deer without an expanding round. His remarks were typical of a civil servant in that it was now the law so suck it up!
A few weeks later the penny dropped and in Kent we were issued with a sticker to put on our FAC. I received about 6 of them! Now they have taken this off the tickets. How much did that fiasco cost the taxpayer?
But I speak as I find and in Kent they have always been reasonable to me, and most others that I know off.
Interesting point here:
1. The CCs do often apply the guidance in their own way, but they are also involved in the writing of the Guide at the HO level.
2. A 'level playing field' is less-important than fair administration case by case. The former is often seen as requiring even more law/guidelines - which is always going to be an opportunity for the Police and HO to make things the same across the country, but worse than they are now. What is needed is well-informed and assertive applicants, who know how to handle the relevant police departments.
3, The problem with changes in both the law and Guide is not that the people making them know nothing about firearms. I suspect that this is the same thinking that makes BASC (for example) feel flattered and important when asked to 'help the HO out', only to find when the warm glow has worn off that they've approved some completely disastrous undermining of 100years of established equitable practice which favoured both fairness, antidiscrimination, and the spirit of the Act.
The problem is emphatically not the the civil servants don't know anything about firearms. The problem is completely the opposite: they know exactly what they're doing, and why, and they know how and when to advance their agenda. We, and our organisations, need to recognise this and act accordingly; by which I mean largely as individual shooters keeping our MPs on side: not necessarily on the side of shooting, but on the side of the spirit of the Firearms Act and of the fundamental freedoms which it protects.
8x57
Distinguished Member
I was previously the secretary of two H.O. approved rifle clubs for a total of 28 years. The one club had over 150 members the majority of which came under 3 main police forces (evenly split) but we also had members from further afield, perhaps five other force areas including the Met. I had regular contact with all forces. Two of the forces where the majority of our membership came from were perfectly reasonable and a pleasure to deal with, the other one was not. In fact their firearms licensing manager was a total PITA, the other two licensing managers said so privately.
It's a very long story but revolves around when the M.O.D. decided that they would no longer issue range safety certificates despite having inspected our range and it took something like seven years to resolve, ultimately with a change to the conditions applied to all FACs issued in the U.K. At one time we had the ridiculous situation where the majority of the police forces issuing certificates were happy that our club members could use the range to its full potential of 100 yards and issued letters to that effect, but this PITA licensing manager instructed all the certificate holders from his force area that they could only shoot at a maximum of 25 metres on our range.
paul o'
Well-Known Member
Easy mty just ask the Office for a definitive wording in writing of there information and where in the law it is ! or was it just a coffee morning chat that has become law within there own world ? and outside said acts as set out in law .
Play the game get the facts then bring out the AA gun to repel the Bolx and BS infestation we all know is going on around the forces home rules set out by an out of date Home Guard System
or call your org if its BASC there help him out !
Play the game get the facts then bring out the AA gun to repel the Bolx and BS infestation we all know is going on around the forces home rules set out by an out of date Home Guard System
or call your org if its BASC there help him out !
8x57
Distinguished Member
Paul if I have had a problem myself or when acting on behalf of a club I have never hesitated to speak to the right person be that the Home Office, Deputy Chief Constable (DCC), Licensing Manager or even the local Police and Crime Commissioner. Most of the time though it was easily and pleasantly resolved at local level by a simple telephone conversation or a personal meeting (with coffee).
I live in Kent but come under the Met , and have found my FEO approachable and very knowledgeable and have had no problems at all , there are some very good guys , (and his boss a lady doing the job) no complaints here 
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
Best of British...
