First Aid Kits - Views please

[hummel]

An excellent and straightforward post which would cover 99% of incidents.
The only things I would add are a snap light,they can be left activated beside an incapacitated casualty if you have to leave to get help,and are a great help in locating there position. They can also be seen for many miles with the aircrews Night Vision Goggles. Also I would recomend a cheap plastic(orange) bivvy bag over the silver foil blanket .You cut a small hole in the sealed end and pull it on like a condom.You can squeeze 2 average sized people into them if you need to.Don`t be shy, I`ve seen people die because they did not get in together!
Ski Patrollers B.A.S.P.Still do a variety of courses that are relevant to the outdoor and mountain enviroment. They vary from straightforward courses to a very advanced EMT (SCARY AS HELL) course.

Hummel

IMO the most important part of a First Aid Kit is a First Aid Course, I know that that sounds simplistic but how many people do you know that carry a First Aid Kit and know little more than how to apply a plaster.


Having done several First Aid Courses over the last thirty years ranging from First Aid in the Work Place a one day
course to First Aid First which is normally 4 days with a one day refresher every three years.

The course I found most relevant to stalking was the Ion Jones course which was designed for mountain rescue, unfortunately I don't think this course is available any longer, as some of the content is now out of date.

One needs to consider what is most relevant to you as a stalker, the requirements may be vastly different from what
the urban stalker needs in a kit to what those of us in hills who can be three or four hours from habitation need.

Firstly consider the most likely situations a stalker will encounter

This is my take on the most likely order of conditions a stalker may encounter.

1 Sprains and broken bones

2 Cuts in varying severity

3 Hypothermia

4 Heart attacks

5 Hypoglycaemia

There are of course others that you could encounter Epilepsy, Heat stroke you could go on and on but the First Aider can never cover all eventualities.

Some have mentioned bullet wounds and of course it could happen God forbid, but just how likely is it, and even if it did
how likely is survival and how much assistance could the average First Aider give.

So my thoughts on what a First Aid Kit should contain apart from the obvious Bandages, sling, tweezers, scissors, plasters or insulating tape.

Mobile phone but remember in a lot of cases especially in the Highlands you can't get reception, so its worth considering some type of flare system there are types that are small enough to fit in a pocket , though some require a FAC should not be a problem for those who have been already granted one for a rifle.

Hand held GPS is also not a bad idea

Survival blanket or bag, Hypothermia can be a real killer in the hills.

Hypoglycaemia, isotonic sports drink preferably, failing that a Mars bar or similar.

Aspirin preferably 300mg but any strength will do for Angina or suspected Heart attack, though remember a First Aider
cannot administer medication, though a fully conscious adult casualty is capable of deciding if they wish to take medication that may help them.

Those are just my thoughts and opinions on the subject, there may be things I have omitted, and others will have there own ideas.

 

[Chanty Wrassler]

From time to time Lidl have very good car first aid kits for sale at an exceptionally handy price. I whip round their local branches and hoover lots of them up for our company vehicles, and retain enough for my own use , so there's always a good kit, including survival blanket, in my own car and pick ups.

I also have a small first aid kit which I put together to carry on my person while shooting and to take on holiday. It is in a zipped nylon case not much bigger than a fag packet and weighs only 100 gm (I just checked!) It has resuscitation face shield, gloves, safety pins, conforming bandage, non woven sponge, tampons (without applicator - keep the weight and bulk down!), adhesive wound dressings, plasters of various sizes, butterfly stitches, soap and other cleansing wipes, non-alcohol antiseptic wipes, alco-pads and other odds and ends. It doesn't have analgesics, though I take NSAIDs and co-codamol with me on holiday, and no need for scissors as I always have a knife/multi-tool to hand.

Fortunately, touch wood and at the risk of hubris and making myself a hostage to my big mouth, I've never had to use it while shooting, (probably because we are all safe and competent when using firearms), but when it comes to work days and we are let loose with hammers, saws, drills .......

 

[Apache]

This dig is not personal but with the following kit:

It has resuscitation face shield, gloves, safety pins, conforming bandage, non woven sponge, tampons (without applicator - keep the weight and bulk down!), adhesive wound dressings, plasters of various sizes, butterfly stitches, soap and other cleansing wipes, non-alcohol antiseptic wipes, alco-pads and other odds and ends.

Wouldn't like to slice my femoral artery falling on a knife, because you melonin pads and conforming bandage wont do much. You need a bigger dressing for bigger injuries. Nothing there will save your life, you can wait for a plaster or an alcohol wipe until you walk back to the car with the blister!

 

[Moray Outfitting]

Thank you everyone for replies to date.

Momentum fading, so rather than drag it out will go with closing date of this Monday - 17th October. Will contact winner by PM and they can choose originally offerred kit or equivalent made up custom kit from what we have in stock.

Whilst not really getting through to those who dont carry anything, it's been useful - if in strange ways!

Really brought home how it is very easy it is to over-whelm the subject and even with the very best of intentions actually turn off the very people you are trying to reach.

Watch this space!

 

[Offroad Gary]

1. If you have a kit, why did you buy it? Where do you keep it? ours came from wifes army days, it lives in teh wardrobe
2. Have you used it and if so, was the content effective? mostly used for kids road-rash injuries - contents ok but are bespoke now.
3. What do you like and dislike about what you have? its too big, size of a loaf of bread
4. If you don’t have a FaK, what would prompt you to get one? winning one!
5. How much do you think about your needs and how much do you just rely on an off the shelf kit? should think more, have reel of insulating tape in truck for minor cuts.
6. Would a basic kit in a simple bag – to fit your pocket, pack or existing pouch appeal. One with a few essential items, just enough components but of good quality? yes.
7. Anyone have an off the shelf kit where the plasters actually stick? - yes - came from edmundson electrical, available in black, brown, blue, grey and green/yellow.

hope this helps..

 

[Moray Outfitting]

Bump for the weekend.

I will take a list of all those have responded at 9 am on Monday and do a draw from those. Will PM winner and take from there.

Ta.

 

[Bandit Country]

I make up my own on a three tier system - trauma, comfort, dual use.
Trauma: Celox, dressings (big & several), safety pins, sam splint (tucked in my belt lining it also supports my lumbar region)
Comfort: Pills & potions really - aspirin, anti-histamine, loperamide, space blanket, few plasters, handy pack of tissues.
Dual use: Disposable gloves, zip ties, LED light-sticks, nutty bar, water.

As said, it's really not what's in your bag, it's what's in your head. Get some trauma training and practice. There's nothing like successfully managing a medical emergency to give you confidence you can manage a medical emergency!

 

[Apache]

Dual use: Disposable gloves, zip ties, LED light-sticks, nutty bar, water.

Other than eating it I'm struggling to find a second use for the nutty bar!

If I was venturing up into the hills a SAM splint and a cohesive bandage would be a wise choice.

If anyone doesn't know a SAM splint is a thin layer of aluminium cushioned both sides in soft foam, once bent has a lot of strength for almost no weight. Very useful splint, can even improvise a neck brace. You can cut it with a knife or strong scissors down to make a smaller splint.

 

[luder]

If you have a kit, why did you buy it? Where do you keep it?
I have two kits - a small one which i keep on my stalking belt containing the basics including 1st field dressing, "harry black" tape, foil blanket etc and a more comprehensive kit in my car.

Have you used it and if so, was the content effective?
Never had to use it for real with the exception of the odd knife "Nick" as i made the small kit up myself i review the contents on a regular basis

What do you like and dislike about what you have?
I like the fact that my perceivid needs are catered for, Dislike the "in date" checking and replacing items

If you don’t have a FaK, what would prompt you to get one?
N/A

How much do you think about your needs and how much do you just rely on an off the shelf kit?
I weigh up the risks verses reality and the location i dont think an off the shelf kit would suit me

Would a basic kit in a simple bag – to fit your pocket, pack or existing pouch appeal. One with a few essential items, just enough components but of good quality?
Yes. A basic kit format, with the option to add and remove items catering to individual needs

Anyone have an off the shelf kit where the plasters actually stick?
No "harry black" tape or micropore .

The realitity is with out a good working knowledge of 1st aid all the kit in the world wont help ... Get on a course and maintain currency is the best bet.

 

[Moray Outfitting]

Apache - nutty bars and their classified use are unique to the Creden Hill area of Hereford

 

[Moray Outfitting]

The draw has been made - couldnt locate a leading celebrity, so any moans to my 13 year old step son

PM on way to the winner - will keep secret until contact established in case they fear being hounded etc.

Thank you all for the input. Will revert once sorted winner out.

 

[Moray Outfitting]

Winner has been contacted and pack will shortly be en route. Thank you everyone.

 

[Eric the Red]

Hey Andy,

Any update on when the kits may become commercially available?

Many thanks

E t R

 

[Moray Outfitting]

Eric

Conscious this was dragging on. Not forgotten though!

Both training and kit side are a heavily saturated market - with a lot bigger outfits than us in it. Add in the variations in opinion - as has come up in this and several collateral threads - and it's very hard to derive a straight forward kit and advice to match - without merely opening more floodgates on the 'debate front'.

In commercial terms, we cannot as a business source complete kits at a sensible price ( that meet the criteria as we see it ) . This was already anticipated and had expected to be looking at offerring some form of base pack and add ons. So far so simple! Turns out that to obtain some items - dressings etc at a commercially competitive price, we'd need to be ordering huge quantities. And thats with a captal H

I have written out a suggested kit/ pack and brief to accompany it - away with wiser heads than mine to check legals and accuracy etc.

Suspect that in the end, if we are to do anything in this line it will be to supply top up packs with harder to source items - like Tisept or good detectable dressings and simply provide a recommended kit list and suggested source of good value supply. Possible we can put together kits for people who want to go with us for various reasons, but time/ cost basis just doesnt seem likely to stack up to do as off-shelf items.

In interim - recommend Paul Kirtley's Blog - has good section on basic kit; without trying to flog you one!

 

[Moray Outfitting]

I appreciate its been quite a while!

Lot to look into regards legality, practicality and I'm afraid straight economics of this side of things. Add in 'having' to go out stalking as well and there just dont seem enough hours in the day.

It has been a difficult process because it is a topic that all three of us feel very strongly about and particularly that it doesnt receive the interest it should nor the promotion. When things like kits are promoted, it is arguable that they are not perhaps best suited to the needs of the user.

Training is the other chestnut in the equation ( forgive mixed metaphor ).

As a business, the retail side is both a relatively new element and the biggest cost element for us. Much as we'd like to go head to head with the big guys, its just not possible. In addition, it is one of those areas that regardless of best intentions, just doesnt arouse substantial interest - with genuine respect to all those who have contributed here and on other posts. The marketing effort required to raise the profile is beyond our means. A bit contentious, but it is a pity that some of the major players dont seem interested in doing that.

Quite simply, we cant put together the kits we'd like to offer at a sensible price. We have various stock items from our tests and I am going to do another post with some close out offers for SD members over the next day or so. That will leave us with some individual items that arent usually included in kits, so we will then switch website space to offering these as top -up items. Subject to interest and supplier terms, we'll then look at carrying on with those.

In terms of advice/ instruction, we would be in a difficult position offering arguably definitive advice. Propose to circumvent that by compiling a list of existing resources for reference.

As with everything we do, if anyone wants to query/discuss/ sense check anything on an individual basis; always happy to help via PM or e mail on the website.


Will follow up with other threads etc asap.

 

[luder]

Hi there,

Not read all the threads on the subject of FaK but having just completed a 1st aid training cse i took ther opportunity to ask a few questions regarding FaKs all the advice was in line with the general thinking on site but when i asked about "quick clot" and other clotting agents, the trainer told me "good idea as long as you know your blood group will not react with the clotting agent" apparently some blood groups react with the agent and the result is a deep burning effect ..... has anyone else on site heard this ?

johnnie

 

[Moray Outfitting]

Johnnie

Responding in any event, rather than as thread starter or potential seller.

In first aid circles this is almost up there with 'which calibre is best'!

Quick Clot kinda holds the roost by virtue of US military use and not least the huge American style marketing behind all these type of products.

By virtue of past experiences, an ongoing interest in general subject and not least 'cos I'm usually the one that cops it - and reviewing whether something we would stock - done more research on these products than is good for sanity.

All of them work. Some are arguably better than others and equally valid arguments come from A & E/ Casualty Specialists/ Paramedics etc regards their efficacy over direct pressure techniques.

Quick Clot V1 produced an exothermic reaction at times. This was an interaction between the product and water - which, aside from any external water, is always going to be present in a human being. That reaction was at times severe enough to cause significant burns.

Version 2 came out sometime ago - certainly no V1 packets will currently be in date. You have to really dig through the marketing fudge - but there is no case evidence of the latter version reacting sufficiently to cause burns - though QC blurb does still concede 'warming effect'. The reaction is H2O specific, not blood group/ type.

The main ( but not only ) competitor is Celox - which has zero heating effects.

There's pro's and cons to all brands, and the question for all remains 'are they needed at all?'

Without really droning on - they have a place and they can make a difference. Thats a matter for personal choice and research. Open Forum, I'd never seek to argue against specific comments from qualified instructors. However we are all products of our own experience - including instructors and their training organisations!

I have spoken with a number of Paramedics and in general they are very anti Haemo Stasis products. This was puzzling at the time. On discussion, various points were raised - exothermic reaction, over clotting ( ?), heart valve risk, infection etc. This seemed to go against extensive studies - most US - and remember how litigious they are! But was clearly being issued in formal briefings.

By no means a certain answer, but I later talked with a group of 'medics' - I invert the commas because two of them were Health Accountants. Their position was that standard direct pressure methods and devices were working perfectly well, why stock something costing ten times the price and complicating the the whole process of treatment. For some reason, this rationale was not acceptable for broadcast, therefore a string of defects were played up to justify the decision. And please understand, in terms of the actual decision itself, I'm not entirely sure they were wrong. It was these issues that I heard trotted out time after time by various medical practitioners.

Hope that helps - sorry ( again ) a bit long winded.

 

[Apache]

If I may chip in without derailing your train of thought - there's a LOT of difference between trying to stop a soldiers blood escaping on a battle field possibly under fire a great distance from a hospital compared to a paramedic going out in an ambulance. The ambulance has a lot of space at it's disposal and can have big bulky bandages and add extra layers on top. The paramedic is well trained and usually even has a friendly assistant. Then the ambulance gets you to a fully staffed hospital quickly.

I can assure you that direct pressure can be used to control very severe bleeding and I would use it as 1st choice but if I was going far from trained help then I would take some haemostatic. There can be problems with it but it's better than letting your blood run out - especially if you are alone and self treating. Getting good pressure on a bleeding wound on yourself is hard!

 

[bewsher500]

1. If you have a kit, why did you buy it? Where do you keep it?
2. Have you used it and if so, was the content effective?
3. What do you like and dislike about what you have?
4. If you don’t have a FaK, what would prompt you to get one?
5. How much do you think about your needs and how much do you just rely on an off the shelf kit?
6. Would a basic kit in a simple bag – to fit your pocket, pack or existing pouch appeal. One with a few essential items, just enough components but of good quality?
7. Anyone have an off the shelf kit where the plasters actually stick?

.

1) several, self assembled. home bathroom cabinet, car glove box, occasional coat pocket
2) yes, yes but often backed up by essential hanky
3) often bulky, bought kits dont have good quality materials in either form or function
4) usually an accident and the realisation that I could have done with one
5) i have bought the contents because the kits dont often have what I feel is useful
6) yes, but with the above caveat. small elastoplasts are often too small, too fiddly to do one handed and dont have a large enough absorbant pad to be of use.
7) I have a small three pack Wallace Cameron kit with Travel, Burns, General "pods".
http://www.magusintl.com/images\products\Micro_first_aid_Rack.jpg
The plasters in the "general" kit are very good and can be opened almost one handed. They do stick but almost too much as when the stick to themselves they sometimes require cutting off!!

I think the overall issue with first aid kits is that they try to be more than "FIRST" aid or not enough.
stemming blood flow is the primary issue IMO, often the materials in the kits are either not absorbant enough or worse they stick to the wound so that any clot is removed when the dressing is removed in a "second" aid situation.
They are also often made in the assumption that another person is there to administer the dressing.

I severed a finger when the locking collar on an Opinel knife slipped open and it snapped shut removing the tip of my middle finger on my right hand. Not pleasant and more blood than I care to see again!
now tell me what you have in your kit that I can open with teeth and apply within a matter of seconds to stem the arterial blood flow and how I can keep it in place until I get to hospital and have it stitched on?
very few things in a off the shelf Boots kit will allow for that.

IMO kits need basic components that can be altered for different scenarios rather than trying to shape things for specific ones.
finger bandages, knuckle plasters, slings etc can all be applied at a second stage and take up valuable room in a "FaK".

more big pads, zinc oxide tape, wound wash, self gripping gauze bandage etc etc