FL Bushing Die vs Mandrel Expander

[Jax]

Seeing as I can't get out shooting, I'm reloading and fine tuning the process, or at least trying to. I'm quite particular about reloading, if you can't tell

I re-size all my brass with Redding full length sizing neck bushing dies. They resize 3/4 of the neck. I can't work out what happens to the other 1/4 of the neck. Does it ever get sized in these dies? Will it get to a point where the brass needs running through a non-bushing FL die?

It got me looking in to the issue. I've seen some well known shooters on YouTube FL sizing their brass in a non-bushing die and then using a mandrel to expand the neck to give the desired neck tension. Seems pretty sensible and perhaps reduces the need to neck turn. It also resolves the above point.

I'd be interested to know if anyone on here uses a mandrel to resize the neck after FL sizing and what mandrel and mandrel holder you use. I'm looking at the mandrel solution from the below

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All the best

 

[Cottis]

Yeah I do. I use standard Redding FL dies with the expander ball rod thingy removed (and binned, horrible things), bump the shoulder back 2 thou post lube, give em a spin in the ultra sonic cleaner, then in the oven at 115degrees for 10 mins to dry. Case necks are then opened up and uniformed with a sinclair expander mandrel die and the relevant standard mandrels. I think you can get under and over sized mandrels but I just use the stock standard sizings and get what must be consistent neck tension. Bullets seat consistently, not too hard and not too soft seating pressure wise.

Each case neck gets a dip in to my little graphite neck lube tube before having the mandrel driven in to the case mouth. Basically a small pot of No 6 shot from a coupla shotgun carts with some graphite powder thrown in.

Works a treat for me and feels much less harsh than the expander ball being ripped out out of case neck. No experience of die bushings, so no idea how it compares to that but using an expander mandrel is very easy and appears, to me anyway, to be gentle on the brass and all my loads shoot really well.

 

[Jax]

Yeah I do. I use standard Redding FL dies with the expander ball rod thingy removed (and binned, horrible things), bump the shoulder back 2 thou post lube, give em a spin in the ultra sonic cleaner, then in the oven at 115degrees for 10 mins to dry. Case necks are then opened up and uniformed with a sinclair expander mandrel die and the relevant standard mandrels. I think you can get under and over sized mandrels but I just use the stock standard sizings and get what must be consistent neck tension. Bullets seat consistently, not too hard and not too soft seating pressure wise.

Each case neck gets a dip in to my little graphite neck lube tube before having the mandrel driven in to the case mouth. Basically a small pot of No 6 shot from a coupla shotgun carts with some graphite powder thrown in.

Works a treat for me and feels much less harsh than the expander ball being ripped out out of case neck. No experience of die bushings, so no idea how it compares to that but using an expander mandrel is very easy and appears, to me anyway, to be gentle on the brass and all my loads shoot really well.

Thanks Cottis,

Do you remove the graphite before seating the bullets?

 

[Cottis]

Thanks Cottis,

Do you remove the graphite before seating the bullets?

No. Literally just invert the case and dip twice in the powdered shot and then in to the press for the mandrel to do its thing.

Don't completely fill the pot with graphite powder. I mean I think I have two shot shells worth of No 6's in a very small little pot about a 2 inches high and 2 inches across with a lid. Probably not even a third of a teaspoon of graphite powder in there. Give it a good shake and you are good to go.

The effort required to open up the necks will give you all the info you need. As you do more cases, the mandrel itself will discolour slightly as it gets a very very fine veneer of graphite on it which will aid the slippery environment you are looking but it really isn't anywhere near as aggressive as pushing the press handle back up when you pull an exander ball on a FL die out of sized case. You will not experience that same horrible graunchy feeling with an expander die even without any lube.

 

[Steff]

... with Redding full length sizing neck bushing dies. They resize 3/4 of the neck. I can't work out what happens to the other 1/4 of the neck. ...

I don't know your setup, but something is obviously not right.
I also use Redding Type-S dies with bushings. My necks get sized all the way if I want them to be.

As for the use of mandrel expanders, I see them as special purpose tools. They may have their merits if you use standard dies which overly size the necks down. But if you already have bushing dies you can set the neck constriction to such a value that the regular expander will hardly have any work left to do, thus making a mandrel expander dispensable.

 

[Klenchblaize]

I use a body only sizing die then change to one with neck bushing. As above if it’s setup correctly it should size the whole neck.

The only time I use a mandrel is in opening a 6mm neck to .25 prior to neck turning my wildcat.
I can see why the Op feels the mandrel approach is a good one. If you have a small lathe you can turn an oversize one down (with the right cutter) to achieve preferred neck tension.

K

 

[dropmdead]

The inside neck mandrel creates a greater consistent neck tension :-
When you don't turn brass, the necks are not 100% concentric or equal in thickness and dimension.
When you use your bushing die, it gets it close to the right size, but they won't have equal neck tension between all the cases.
By using the neck mandrel (Which are usually calibre size minus 2 thou), this sizes the last final increment of the case dimension, and creates a more consistent size.

If I had all the tools, this would be my full process -

Deprime
Clean
Anneal
F/L bushing neck size
Neck size with mandrel
Clean
Dry
Prime
Fill case
Seat bullet

 

[Steff]

....
By using the neck mandrel (Which are usually calibre size minus 2 thou), this sizes the last final increment of the case dimension, and creates a more consistent size.

....

... as does any standard expander ball.

 

[Jelen]

No. Literally just invert the case and dip twice in the powdered shot and then in to the press for the mandrel to do its thing.

Don't completely fill the pot with graphite powder. I mean I think I have two shot shells worth of No 6's in a very small little pot about a 2 inches high and 2 inches across with a lid. Probably not even a third of a teaspoon of graphite powder in there. Give it a good shake and you are good to go.

The effort required to open up the necks will give you all the info you need. As you do more cases, the mandrel itself will discolour slightly as it gets a very very fine veneer of graphite on it which will aid the slippery environment you are looking but it really isn't anywhere near as aggressive as pushing the press handle back up when you pull an exander ball on a FL die out of sized case. You will not experience that same horrible graunchy feeling with an expander die even without any lube.

Wish I'd read this last week. I bought a tub of graphite dry lube to re-plen my dry lube media (ceramic balls in my case). And yes, trust Cottis on this, a 1/3 of a teaspoon is ample.
My heaped teaspoon was excessive to say the least! Graphite is very black and very messy and was all over my desk, hands, T shirt and the Cocker (popped it's nose up to see what I was swearing about)

 

[Cottis]

Wish I'd read this last week. I bought a tub of graphite dry lube to re-plen my dry lube media (ceramic balls in my case). And yes, trust Cottis on this, a 1/3 of a teaspoon is ample.
My heaped teaspoon was excessive to say the least! Graphite is very black and very messy and was all over my desk, hands, T shirt and the Cocker (popped it's nose up to see what I was swearing about)

I want to laugh but from a similar experience (without the spaniel) I know that less is more.

 

[Jax]

The inside neck mandrel creates a greater consistent neck tension :-
When you don't turn brass, the necks are not 100% concentric or equal in thickness and dimension.
When you use your bushing die, it gets it close to the right size, but they won't have equal neck tension between all the cases.
By using the neck mandrel (Which are usually calibre size minus 2 thou), this sizes the last final increment of the case dimension, and creates a more consistent size.

If I had all the tools, this would be my full process -

Deprime
Clean
Anneal
F/L bushing neck size
Neck size with mandrel
Clean
Dry
Prime
Fill case
Seat bullet

That is my exact process other than the mandrel step at the moment. I’m looking to swap out the F/L bushing neck size step for just FL.

I neck turn all my brass, but the whidden dies still re-size the neck enough for a mandrel to open the neck up to give the correct neck tension. I’ve not been able to verify other dies sizes just yet.

I don't know your setup, but something is obviously not right.
I also use Redding Type-S dies with bushings. My necks get sized all the way if I want them to be.

I’ve always been under the impression neck bushing FL dies were designed to only re-size 3/4 of the neck. My dies are setup correctly, but even with the bushing locked down tight so it doesn’t rattle, there is still a small part of the neck that isn’t re-sized

 

[Steff]

That is my exact process other than the mandrel step at the moment. I’m looking to swap out the F/L bushing neck size step for just FL.

I neck turn all my brass, but the whidden dies still re-size the neck enough for a mandrel to open the neck up to give the correct neck tension. I’ve not been able to verify other dies sizes just yet.



I’ve always been under the impression neck bushing FL dies were designed to only re-size 3/4 of the neck. My dies are setup correctly, but even with the bushing locked down tight so it doesn’t rattle, there is still a small part of the neck that isn’t re-sized

The bushings MUST ‚rattle‘ for them to self-centre. Just a wee bit, not enough to make any difference re sizeing lenght.
And no, the bushing dies are NOT designed to size only 3/4 of the neck. Their purpose is to adjust the constriction of the necks to the wall thickness of the cases in order not having to over-size and susepuently open them up again.
You say that your die is set up correctly. Are you also using Redding shellholders? And do you back off the die from where it touches the shellholdet? Maybe to much?

 

[D13REW]

I'm in the same boat as Jax with regard to not getting out and watching loads of YouTube reloading videos (especially Eric Cortina).
One exception though.
I've just picked a new rifle up and can't get out to Zero it finding out a load or fire formed dimensions in the process. Also I noticed that the last time I was out with my previous rifle, my groups had significantly opened up. Something I put down to neck tension as I noticed when sizing fired brass it was way to0 hard to run through the press. I through those away and the ones I did load were pulled and saved should I ever get an annealer (being fired over 15 times). So I started fresh with new Brass. Now I loaded up from brand new cases without doing any prep and made some weights up to the max recommended. I'm not to interested in groups yet just going to check ES while monitoring pressure signs and getting used to my new rifle. When I come to reload the new fired cases I am going to do it just like Dropmdead said he would
Deprime
Clean
Anneal - I dont have one but wouldn't anneal until the 3rd time after firing
F/L bushing neck size - shoulders back 2 thou
Neck size with mandrel
Clean
Dry
Prime
Fill case
Seat bullet

In my Redding S type competition die set I have a body, b - neck bushing, and a bullet seater dies. Presumably the die marked b - neck means body and neck (cant find much information on it)? I will then use a mandrel if it ever turns up from supplier

 

[hunta]

If using a Redding competition bushing neck sizing die it is possible to size as much or as little of the neck as you desire. By adjusting the micrometer on top of the die clockwise you will size more of the neck. I like to start by sizing all of the neck and then measure for concentricity. I then turn the micrometer anticlockwise one turn, size and measure concentricity and so on. It is not unusual to find a particularly position that throws the most consistent concentricity. I don't worry if I'm only sizing 3/4 of the neck. I find that I have to body size after 3 or 5 firings when the bolt starts to get more stiff when closing. This varies with make of brass and calibre/pressure.

 

[judgebill]

Re depth or length of resizing the neck, one measurement is the size of the caliber. That is, if your caliber is .224, then size the neck roughly .224. I always use a mandrel for each caliber (Sinclair), gives consistent neck tension. Just my way. As for use of graphite, yes it can be messy but have been using it for 50 years to lubricate inside of necks. Always works. Don't try to clean inside of neck, the graphite won't affect gunpowder.

 

[Jax]

Following this with interest. Be interesting to see the results