HD day/ night scopes...

[8x57]

I would tend to think that you are possibly correct brewsher. No doubt the barristers could have a field day arguing over the actual wording and technicalities on this one. I just hope that the situation is clearer in England and Wales.
Purely out of interest has anyone turned up the response to the same question from BASC yet?

 

[Lupus]

I've always read it as the sight being illegal for use on deer regardless of the time of day/situation.

I imagine it is designed to be able to charge people equipped for night shooting and found in possession of deer carcases regardless of the time of day. Say a vehicle is stopped containing a rifle equipped for night shooting and there is also a deer carcase. The excuse could be it was taken in daylight, but the suspicion is it was shot at night and possibly poached. This way being equipped will allow a prosecution regardless of excuse.

I've always wondered where illuminated reticules sit. Are they a 'special device'?

Wolfie

 

[8x57]

I suppose that's a possibility Wolfie but who knows what the legislators had in mind when the law was drafted.

That's the crux of the problem, advances in technology combined with poorly drafted legislation, also differing legislation between the various countries.

 

[mealiejimmy]

I am sorry but that is a mis-interpretation of the Act in my humble opinion

The use of Night vision (Heat Sensitive or Light intensifying) equipment is specifically in regard to night shooting.

That's like saying you can't shine a light on a deer whilst shooting it in broad daylight unless you have a night license!



crackers

I'm with the SAC on this one and until a court decides the exact meaning of the legislation, I won't be shooting any deer at any time with NV or thermal scopes.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[cowsmart]

My

 

[sparky9]

well, you learn something everyday. What if i'm out early shooting foxes, and 1 hour before sunrise I shoot a deer with my lamp still attached, the lamp is only for night shooting so would I be on dodgy ground.

 

[mealiejimmy]

well, you learn something everyday. What if i'm out early shooting foxes, and 1 hour before sunrise I shoot a deer with my lamp still attached, the lamp is only for night shooting so would I be on dodgy ground.

Assuming you're in Scotland, I'd say that if the deer was shot with the light switched off, then no problem, but if you illuminated the deer with the light and then shot it while the light was still illuminating the deer then I'd say that was illegal (unless you had a valid night shooting licence)
If you're not in Scotland, then I don't have any idea whether it would be legal or illegal.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[FGYT]

Dear Lee,

Apologies for the delay in coming back to you. I had missed your email until
chased by Beth. If you don't hear from us for any reason do please call.
SACS is obsessive about member support and does not like to let emails slip
through the net, even when busy on other matters. This is a very busy time
for all shooting organisations.

You are the fourth person to as this question about 'day/night scopes'. As
technology moves forward legislation will have to keep up, however the Deer
(Firearms etc.) (Scotland) Order 1985 is, in our view, quite clear in regard
to the legality of using light-intensifying sights for killing deer.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1985/1168/pdfs/uksi_19851168_en.pdf

"2. No person shall use in connection with the killing or taking of deer any
firearm, ammunition or sight except as is declared lawful by this order and
in the circumstances provided therefor."

"5.(b) It shall be lawful to use - a sight which is not a
light-intensifying, heat-sensitive or other special sighting device for
night shooting."

2. makes it clear that it is unlawful to use any sight not declared lawful
i.e. at 5.(b).

5.(b) makes it clear to us that killing deer by use of light-intensifying,
heat-sensitive or other special sighting devices for night shooting would be
unlawful.

There seems to be some confusion in regard to the words "for night shooting"
as if the purpose as opposed to capacity of the sight is the defining factor
i.e. unlawful for night shooting, but ok for daytime. It is our
understanding that the capacity of a sighting device to be
light-intensifying is sufficient to preclude it from lawful use - night or
day. It is important to read the motive behind the legislative wording and I
include it here from Hansard:
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1985/jul/10/deer-firearms-etc-scotl
and-order-1985

In particular: "Also, your Lordships will have noticed ordinary sights,
including normal telescopic sights, are authorised under Article 5(b), but
special sighting devices for night shooting are not."
In our view this further reinforces the opinion that it is the
light-intensifying sight itself that is unlawful as opposed to simply the
use of it at night. If its use at night was lawful, there would likely be
further legal wording determining use, which is not the case.

Therefore, we would advise against the use of the light-intensifying ATN
sight for killing deer as in our view that would be unlawful.

As ever, this email should not be considered to be professional legal advice
and is our guidance to you based on experience and our understanding of
current legislation.

If you need anything further call me on the numbers below. We are very busy,
but the phones are manned day and evening.

Hope that helps.

Best wishes,

Alex


Alex Stoddart
Director
Scottish Association for Country Sports

Digital sights arnt light intensifying sights like Generation 1 2 and 3 Tubed night sights any more than a Zeiss which due to glass quality enables you to see right up to the 1 hr after sunset cut off where you cant see with the naked eye

they need a large amount of Light to be shined on the target to see it the same as a normal glass scope does at night But they can see an Infra red wavelength which is what is used in the illuminator which normal eyesight human and animal cant see

of course its an argument in court for a judge to rule on but they arnt Heat sensitive or light intensifying Sights in the Normal realm of Nigh vision devices

 

[Lupus]

Would it not be covered by "other special sighting device for night shooting", because that is what it is?

Wolfie

 

[bewsher500]

I've always read it as the sight being illegal for use on deer regardless of the time of day/situation.

I imagine it is designed to be able to charge people equipped for night shooting and found in possession of deer carcases regardless of the time of day. Say a vehicle is stopped containing a rifle equipped for night shooting and there is also a deer carcase. The excuse could be it was taken in daylight, but the suspicion is it was shot at night and possibly poached. This way being equipped will allow a prosecution regardless of excuse.

I've always wondered where illuminated reticules sit. Are they a 'special device'?

Wolfie

why would you be charged? and what with?
No different that if I go stalking, shoot a deer, gralloch it, put it in the car, sit out for a fox,
drive home in the dark.
I have a rifle equipped with a night vision scope and one without

who's to say which one I used or when I shot the deer?

think we are all reading too much into this

 

[Lupus]

Bewsher,

If you have one with and one without then nothing, most likely, but that was not the question/scenario posted by the OP, or myself.

I'm not a lawyer, but from my interpretation it is illegal to shoot a deer at any time using night sights of any flavour. I don't have a night sight, thermal, image intensifying, or otherwise, but if I did I would not be using it for shooting deer at any time of day.

You obviously do have such, and interpret the law differently. Good luck!

Wolfie

 

[bewsher500]

Bewsher,

If you have one with and one without then nothing, most likely, but that was not the question/scenario posted by the OP, or myself.

I'm not a lawyer, but from my interpretation it is illegal to shoot a deer at any time using night sights of any flavour. I don't have a night sight, thermal, image intensifying, or otherwise, but if I did I would not be using it for shooting deer at any time of day.

You obviously do have such, and interpret the law differently. Good luck!

Wolfie

No I have neither
I am still in the dark ages with a lamp....(pun intended!)

The key is the bit in bold.
where does it state blanket coverage for time of shot?

It does however detail quite clearly specific scenario where this would apply "for night shooting"

As I said, this a "shooting a fox with a .22" argument
over thought

 

[FGYT]

Would it not be covered by "other special sighting device for night shooting", because that is what it is?

Wolfie

in that case a normal scope is to as you can use that at night with a lamp / Illuminator just that they can use different wavelengths of the light spectrum

so you cant use a glass scope in day because you can use it at night with a lamp ??????????

 

[Lupus]

Bewsher,

Sorry, my bad. Shows one should never assume. So from one Dark Age dweller to another.

There is no problem using NV for fox from what I can read, but the piece of legislation is written, to my mind, to outlaw the use of sights (aiming device) designed for use at night, with thermal and light intensifying being specifically mentioned and the cover all "special devices" covering other forms of night observation/sighting technology, on deer.

FGYT,

Don't know enough about these day/night digital scopes, but no, obviously, a day-light scope is not outlawed because it is not designed for use at night. The lamp is outlawed. As previously mentioned, I too would think shooting a deer illuminated by a lamp at any time would be illegal as the lamp is designed for aiding in aiming at night. I'd also argue that as there is no advantage to using IR scopes other than for use at night, either with or without illumination, they ARE designed for use at night; and therefore prohibited for use on deer at ANY time.

As I said above, I'm no lawyer. For a definitive answer someone needs to ask one. One shooting organisation has already been good enough to give their interpretation, and it appears to be the same as mine. Other orgs may differ.

Wolfie

 

[Lupus]

Bewsher,

Apologies again, didn't fully answer your question.

The law says all sights are illegal unless allowed. Then it says all sights are allowed other than image intensifying, thermal, or other special devices designed for use at night. It doesn't say the sights/devices are only outlawed if used at night. So it is the item that is outlawed when used for killing deer, not the time of day it is used. Just to be clear, this relates to the killing of deer only, not your fox with a 22.

Bit like expanding bullets. It is those bullets 'designed' to expand that attract section 5 status. Even though many match bullets expand readily, that aspect was not part of their design and, therefore, are just lumps of metal, as far as the law is concerned.

Wolfie

 

[FGYT]

Bewsher,

Sorry, my bad. Shows one should never assume. So from one Dark Age dweller to another.

There is no problem using NV for fox from what I can read, but the piece of legislation is written, to my mind, to outlaw the use of sights (aiming device) designed for use at night, with thermal and light intensifying being specifically mentioned and the cover all "special devices" covering other forms of night observation/sighting technology, on deer.

FGYT,

Don't know enough about these day/night digital scopes, but no, obviously, a day-light scope is not outlawed because it is not designed for use at night. The lamp is outlawed. As previously mentioned, I too would think shooting a deer illuminated by a lamp at any time would be illegal as the lamp is designed for aiding in aiming at night. I'd also argue that as there is no advantage to using IR scopes other than for use at night, either with or without illumination, they ARE designed for use at night; and therefore prohibited for use on deer at ANY time.

As I said above, I'm no lawyer. For a definitive answer someone needs to ask one. One shooting organisation has already been good enough to give their interpretation, and it appears to be the same as mine. Other orgs may differ.

Wolfie

well yes but only if it qualifies as an image intensifying scope they are assuming it is and/or where asked if this image intensifying scope and answer based on that assumption

is, in our view, quite clear in regard
to the legality of using light-intensifying sights for killing deer.

and they are right the law is clear
But IMO it is not an image intensifying scope SO if you ask the wrong question it will get you the wrong answer

nore it is it specially designed for night use only it need a source of light as a glass scope does it is sold as a day and night scope (if you add a torch ) therefore it was designed as a day scope and intended to be used in daylight Image intensifiers need a special lens cap that cut out 99% of the light to enable them to work correctly in daytime or you will damage the tube

as they said the law needs to catch up with technology and To be honest all it needs say is its illegal to shoot deer between the 1hr after sunset and the 1hr before sunrise without a special licence (which can state the methods acceptable relative to teh Site and circumstances of the grant) ...End of

 

[Lupus]

What the law is and what it should be are two very different things.

I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I would consider the day/night scopes as being covered by the 'special device' clause; which does not say it has to be light intensifying, just designed for use at night, which it is, all be it with an illuminator.

End of.......

Wolfie

 

[matt_hooks]

Anyone care to state the legislation that bans the use of NV/digital scopes within the allowed hours? As far as I can tell, there is no restriction on using any kind of sighting device for deer, as long as it is within the time limits.

 

[matt_hooks]

I can confirm, whilst your rifle scope is legal to have and mount on your rifle it may be used for day time shooting of deer and for night shooting. Whilst the scope is legal to mount and use. You would require a night shooting licence that allowed the use of this type of equipment for shooting deer one hour after sunset and one hour before sunrise.

Is it just me, or does that not make any sense, or clarify the issue at all?

 

[Orion]

Anyone care to state the legislation that bans the use of NV/digital scopes within the allowed hours? As far as I can tell, there is no restriction on using any kind of sighting device for deer, as long as it is within the time limits.

Applicable to Scotland - not England & Wales:

"The use of light-intensifying, heat sensitive or other special sighting devices is prohibited under Section 5 of the Deer (Firearms etc) (Scotland) Order 1985"

http://www.bestpracticeguides.org.uk/reference/night-shooting