Head and neck shots with lead ammunition

When I travel into London and go on the tube I ingest god knows what into my body. Same when I walk through the city, tring , Aylesbury or any other urban area with cars present.
I drink water that has god knows what forever chemicals floating in it along with micro plastics and the same goes for my food, no matter how careful I am to buy good stuff.

So……. On the balance of it, I’m not that worried about eating game which I have shot with a lead bullet.
But it is a lot better since they removed lead from petrol, and brought in restrictions on over all emission levels? As for the forever chemicals - are you happy with them constantly being put into the environment, or should they also be restricted? Are you happy with all the pollution going into the rivers?

Or should we just not care, crap wherever we want, leave litter everywhere and generally just carry on regardless of any one else as long as I am ok?
 
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Smoking is the one which costs both the smokers pocket also the burden long term to the health service.

Smoking remains the leading cause of preventable death in the UK, with recent estimates attributing approximately 74,600 to 78,000 annual deaths to smoking-related illnesses. Over 15% of all UK deaths are linked to smoking, with cardiovascular diseases alone accounting for around 40 deaths every day.

As of 2024, approximately 5.3 million adults (10.6% of the population) smoke cigarettes in the UK that figure does not include children who smoke.

Regular Smokers: Around 1% of pupils aged 11-15 in England are classified as regular smokers.

@Heym SR20 needs to wave his flag at the above first as that is doing more harm 🏴‍☠️
But the government gets a tax return on tobacco so they like that. That is unless you buy your fags from the barbershop.😂
 
Try this....Don't do that. Throw damaged meat away as per all sensible advice. There will be lead particles in your bin, not in your dog, not in your food.

Everyone knows that and takes appropriate measures to avoid it.

But the logical conclusion is NOT that this missing lead is in meat that a sensible person would eat or feed to his dog. There is no logical, quantifiable connection between the lead fragments which were found in this paper (and via your suggested method) and the presence of lead in food.
You might as well say you shouldn't eat beef because of E. Coli present in the anal sphincter of cattle. The disconnect between the observation and sensible food preparation practice is equally wide.
I knew I was wasting me time…
 
But it is a lot better since they removed lead from petrol, and brought in restrictions on over all emission levels? As for the forever chemicals - are you happy with them constantly being put into the environment, or should they also be restricted? Are you happy with all the pollution going into the rivers? Or should we just not care, crap wherever we want, leave litter everywhere and generally just carry on regardless of any one else as long as I am ok?

Yes, car pollution is down but when I get home and blow my nose the snot will still be black. Whether that’s from diesel particulates, tyres, dust or brake material (esp on the underground) , it’s still there, and the PM1/2.5/10 particles are known to get to hard to reach places in your body.

As for our rivers, I personally would incarcerate every water company exec, the board of ofwat and every board of a factory farm near to a river that is filing out rivers with crap.
They all deserve a stay at his majesty’s please for committing environmental terrorism!!

But, all of this is a far cry from shooting lead bullets, especially when you consider that the lead in question only comes into contact with a tiny proportion of the population and at very low doses when compared with other pollutants.
I’m not saying I’m anti non-toxic ammo, quite the opposite in fact, but I don’t see the direct correlation between a few deer being shot with lead ammo and the health risks that other substances cause.
Hell, KFC will kill many 1000% more people in the UK this year than lead ingested from culled venison will.
 
X-ray analyses of deer carcases do not distinguish between lead present in the meat and lead.present in other parts of the carcase.
In particular, the study of the deer tissue in the Nature article was from a section of tissue which nobody in their right minds would ever consider eating.
Which bits? It looks like they used the intercostal muscles - good mince
As is usual with these studies, the authors wanted a particular answer and designed their study to achieve it.
Have you any evidence to support this statement? Given it is known and accepted that bullets fragment and travel through the carcass as small particles, all this study is showing is that there are enough particles that are not visible.
 
I'm curious to know if the carcass would contain any amount lead if the head or neck was removed......is there a possibility that lead could travel through the bloodstream moments after being shot?
To get back to your question: Head shot and removed, most of the lead fragments will be removed. Could fragments travel in the bloodstream? Possibly, especially with a low neck shot, but they would be small fragments. One can't shoot a cow or sheep in the head with a free bullet and put it into the food chain because of the documented risk of brain getting into the circulation.

More of a concern is the scatter of small fragments from the impact into the meat. I have a CT scan of a red that I neck shot with a quite remarkable "shell" of fragments going quite some way into the chest. It's these fragments that present a genuine risk to health, a risk that can be removed by using non-lead.
 
Try this....Don't do that. Throw damaged meat away as per all sensible advice. There will be lead particles in your bin, not in your dog, not in your food.
Why would you do this if the lead is doing no harm?
According to your frequently repeated opinion, there isn’t a scintilla of proof, or a single definitive scientific study which you accept, proving that lead in ammunition causes any harm when consumed by human or animal.
Everyone knows that and takes appropriate measures to avoid it.
Why avoid it if it does no harm.
But the logical conclusion is NOT that this missing lead is in meat that a sensible person would eat or feed to his dog. There is no logical, quantifiable connection between the lead fragments which were found in this paper (and via your suggested method) and the presence of lead in food.
Really? The evidence would suggest otherwise.
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There’s plenty more where these came from.
You might as well say you shouldn't eat beef because of E. Coli present in the anal sphincter of cattle.
Im allergic to hot dogs, I don’t eat lips or assholes.
The disconnect between the observation and sensible food preparation practice is equally wide.
You’re preaching to the converted there, but I’m not the one consistently arguing that both lead shot and lead bullets are inconsequential and have no negative impacts.
I’m not the one discounting the scientific evidence that it does, because every single study over the last century fails to meet your personal standards of proof or scientific rigour.
You’ve fatally holed your own argument below the waterline by admitting that you wouldn’t eat it yourself, why not?
If it’s good enough to throw to scavengers with a proven history of injurious effects, why isn’t it good enough for you or your dogs?0
 
Which bits? It looks like they used the intercostal muscles - good mince
The bits immediately surrounding the wound channel, which are discarded.
Have you any evidence to support this statement?
Yes, the selection of the tissue sample.
Given it is known and accepted that bullets fragment and travel through the carcass as small particles,
Have you evidence to support this statement? Everyone knows that you get fragments around the wound, but I consider it a stretch to claim that it generally accepted that small particles travel through(out)(sic) the carcase.
all this study is showing is that there are enough particles that are not visible.
Do you not think it made any comment on food safety levels of lead in the sample, representing this piece of waste as food?
 
It’s as simple as this, pin the shoulders, rite the front end off, like I always do and then it’s int a problem!

The shoulders are a faff to deal with anyway, problem solved!

I even don’t bother with the shoulders when I’ve used copper, got better things to do.
 
Why would you do this if the lead is doing no harm?
According to your frequently repeated opinion, there isn’t a scintilla of proof, or a single definitive scientific study which you accept, proving that lead in ammunition causes any harm when consumed by human or animal.

Why avoid it if it does no harm.
A) you're misrepresenting my opinion. I know what my opinion is better than you do. My opinion has always been that eating game shot with lead ammunition isn't harmful - because that's what the evidence has proven - subject to the proviso that you're not a total idiot.
B) The reason for avoiding it is good sense. You.may find that incomprehensible.
Really? The evidence would suggest otherwise.
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There’s plenty more where these came from.
I'm sure there is plenty more of that, but it isn't evidence. It's red herrings. Take the first photo. when was the last time you ate a deer's head?
That's just silliness. None of this evidence is showing anything that is actually at the stage of being food.
Im allergic to hot dogs, I don’t eat lips or assholes.

You’re preaching to the converted there, but I’m not the one consistently arguing that both lead shot and lead bullets are inconsequential and have no negative impacts.
.....if you have half an ounce of common sense. If you have no sense whatsoever, and I won't dispute your insistence that you don't, then you can harm yourself - although you'd be much more likely to kill yourself eating other foods first. Equally, you ought also to be waiting for help before crossing the road.
I’m not the one discounting the scientific evidence that it does,
There is no scientific evidence that it does. There is a colossal mass of evidence that it does no harm or has positive effects. There is a lot of inapplicable, methodologically defective, biased, paid for or just plain dishonest material masquerading as scientific evidence..
because every single study over the last century fails to meet your personal standards of proof or scientific rigour.
The thing about science is that you can't just publish any old rubbish and expect that to be considered authoritative fact. It isn't. There are standards which things have to meet to be valid. All I have done is to point out that some studies published quite clearly do not meet minimal generally accepted standards for validity. For example, studies based on invalid sample selections - e.g. a widely promoted study during covid about wildfowl being shot with lead shot was entirely based on a grossly inapplicable sampling methodology and invalidly small sample size which rendered the whole exercise statistically unacceptable, by anybody's standard. The authors then made a wholly unsupportable (scientifically and mathematically) extrapolation to extend findings from a tiny, non-random sample to claim national population-wide conclusions. Anyone presenting claims like that at even school-level maths or science classes would deservedly be heavily criticised.

Bad "science" is not fact.
You’ve fatally holed your own argument below the waterline by admitting that you wouldn’t eat it yourself, why not?
Nonsense. My argument that the meat is fit to eat is entirely unaffected by whether or not I eat the trimmings. Claiming it is "fatally.holed" is wildly and delusionally hyperbolic As well as plain wrong.
I have to admit to suspecting this is all deliberately crass nonsense you're posting here.
If it’s good enough to throw to scavengers with a proven history of injurious effects,
I don't know about that, there is no proven history of injurious effects where I am, being somewhat outside the habitat range of condors amd vultures.
why isn’t it good enough for you or your dogs?0
Defective premise, defective question. I don't throw butchery scraps to scavengers, I put it in the bin. Do you eat the contents of your bin? Does the fact that you don't necessarily mean that your diet is dangerous?
How can you make such a silly argument?
 
Ok , let’s ask the question again for the 1000th time-

How many people have died from lead poisoning from shot deer and game in the last 50-100 years?

I think you’ll find the answer is - NON RECORDED!

Presumably you mean - NONE RECORDED?

"NON RECORDED" implies that there may well have been, but no-one actually documented it.

Two very different things.
 
Ok , let’s ask the question again for the 1000th time-

Let's reply again:
1. Is lead harmful? - Yes, it damages quite a number of enzyme pathways and has no functional role in any organism
2. Are there recorded cases of human lead poising from ingested lead shot? - Yes, I've posted some including the bizarre one where a lady had chronic illness until she had a bought of diarrhoea and crapped a pellet
3. Are there recorded cases of animal lead poisoning from bullet fragments in carcasses - Plenty, and birds are quite sensitive to it
4. Are there recorded cases of higher blood lead in humans through eating lead contaminated meat - Yes
5. Are there recorded cases of someone dying from eating lead contaminated meat? - No, - I've not been able to find any, despite a good literature search
6. Can lead be replaced by effective alternatives? - Yes.

The comment "subject to the proviso that you're not a total idiot" is relevant because there is a population health aspect to the selling of game as the general public know nothing of this issue, so there has to be guidance to keep lead particles out of food. Xray studies show the scattering of lead particles beyond the obvious wound channel (see above), the study quoted makes the point that X-rays have a limit of detecting lead at about 0.5mm, but that there are smaller fragments below this size that they have detected.
 
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