Head and neck shots with lead ammunition

[Buchan]

The bits immediately surrounding the wound channel, which are discarded.

I'd agree that the study would have been strengthened by taking small samples at greater distances from the wound channel such as 16cm (being a distance that contains 95% of lead fragments established by this study: https://doi.org/10.1007/s44187-023-00052-w. However the authors point out that they were limited by cost and availability of the machine.
I take your point that one would discard this tissue, but the second study on grouse breast muscle (which would normally be eaten) had no whole shot in it yet had the microparticles.

To me this quite straight forward study adds data. It is known lead scatters, this paper confirms that there are even smaller particles in the meat, not a surprise, but now it has been confirmed. And the smaller the particle the greater the bioavailability of the lead.

 

[andyk]

I don’t really doubt that lead ammunition has the potential for negative health effects, and the focus on trying to find examples of death from acute lead poisoning is a bit of a red herring - the concern is really about prolonged exposure to sub-lethal amounts and what that may do to overall health, e.g. increased risk of cancers etc.

Nonetheless, I do still think this is being pushed primarily as an attack on shooting. Not by everyone who promotes it and in some cases only in the paternalistic way of ‘nanny state’ advocates.

My reason for believing that is because there are plenty of other things with proven negative health outcomes, think ultra processed foods, alcohol, cured meats, refined sugar etc that are considered matters of personal choice.

While I do think regular eating of lead shot meat likely will increase the risk of negative health outcomes, it’s (a) unproven, and (b) quite probably less severe than many of the ‘personal choices’ that no-one seeks to regulate out of existence.

 

[Apthorpe]

I'd agree that the study would have been strengthened by taking small samples at greater distances from the wound channel such as 16cm (being a distance that contains 95% of lead fragments established by this study: https://doi.org/10.1007/s44187-023-00052-w. However the authors point out that they were limited by cost and availability of the machine.

Agreed, so why not sample at such a distance? By making the choice to sample where you kmow you're going to find lots of lead, one is pre-emptively biasing the study, exacerbating that by selecting a carcase where the bullet had struck bone.
Given that they wanted to make a point about lead contamination In food.I would consider an independent study would select a tissue sample which is normally used as food.

I take your point that one would discard this tissue, but the second study on grouse breast muscle (which would normally be eaten) had no whole shot in it yet had the microparticles.

Agreed...although very few.

To me this quite straight forward study adds data.

I agree that it adds data, but the data is not practically useful since it does not add data on where the even smaller particles extend to. Whether something adds data is not relevant without having examined what the limits and quality of the data are. In this case, the data added tells us that a piece of tissue one would discards because it is contaminated, is contaminated with smaller pieces as well. That is all. The comparison with food safety limits is otiose.

It is known lead scatters, this paper confirms that there are even smaller particles in the meat, not a surprise, but now it has been confirmed. And the smaller the particle the greater the bioavailability of the lead.

Indeed, i understand all the above, however what is important for rifle users (and this thread) is to understand the extent to which these smaller (hitherto undetectable) particles extend beyond the wound area into the tissue which you would not discard.

 

[Buchan]

there you go question answered with no faff

Yes, one question in support of the pro-lead argument, 5 in support of the lead is bad argument!

 

[Buchan]

Indeed, i understand all the above, however what is important for rifle users (and this thread) is to understand the extent to which these smaller (hitherto undetectable) particles extend beyond the wound area into the tissue which you would not discard

I think the smaller particles would not travel as far - less momentum. So in a way the study shows that meat is more contaminated than we realise, because of micro fragments. The photos are of a red calf I shot - poorly, as you can just see the lead in the lumbar region (I made a right mess of wind and distance). It got a second shot low neck as that was all I could see. You can see lead fragments into some of the shoulder meat which on cutting had no visible bruising. We did the CT, just because it's cool

 

[Mike1979]

I appreciate all the science but ultimately we will be made to shoot with non toxic sooner or later whether we like it or not. For me that is unfortunately the end of the argument.

I would like to point out that eating game shot with lead does not and has not been a cause for concern for me but that is a personal viewpoint.

 

[Twodogs]

A quick internet search reveals many sites stating that copper, an essential mineral for body function, in excess, is indeed harmful to the point it can prove fatal.
Rightly or wrongly the push is for lead alternatives landing squarely at the feet of copper.
Is anyone aware of any studies that would prove/suggest that copper shot game can lead to copper toxicity or not as the case may be?

 

[andyk]

A quick internet search reveals many sites stating that copper, an essential mineral for body function, in excess, is indeed harmful to the point it can prove fatal.
Rightly or wrongly the push is for lead alternatives landing squarely at the feet of copper.
Is anyone aware of any studies that would prove/suggest that copper shot game can lead to copper toxicity or not as the case may be?

Surely all that would prove is we shouldn’t shoot with anything, given 30-40% of lead core rifle bullets are copper?

 

[Buchan]

A quick internet search reveals many sites stating that copper, an essential mineral for body function, in excess, is indeed harmful to the point it can prove fatal.
Rightly or wrongly the push is for lead alternatives landing squarely at the feet of copper.
Is anyone aware of any studies that would prove/suggest that copper shot game can lead to copper toxicity or not as the case may be?

Copper is an essential element, it's part of a number of enzyme pathways so organisms need it. Copper toxicity exists and can be a problem for cattle and especially sheep. The toxicity usually comes from excess copper salts in the diet. I've done a google scholar search and can't find anything (quick search)
So, there might be a pathway of copper fragments, although copper bullets don't fragment as much