INFO-ALL KNIFE MAKERS!!!!
- Thread starter spiker76
- Start date
Clearly, the knife in question was not a forgery. The maker had not sought to apply an "Emberleaf" maker's mark. So the matter at hand would seem to be this: whether it is a sound idea for any knifemaker to sue another maker for making a knife with a similar shape.
Set aside the notion of "intellectual property rights" for a blade shape for a moment. If buyers of that shape of knife want to pay less for a product, one that may not be as good as the Emberleaf hardware+warranty, is that any different from those who buy a Landrover because they cannot afford a G-Wagen?
In that dynamic, what do Emberleaf lose? Nowt. If the cheaper knives break per the post above, then owning the "Rolls Royce" option becomes aspirational. Surely good for boosting the Emberleaf prestige stakes and prices?
Finally, playing devil's advocate here: What if Jeff can prove he made a Cael-esque knife commercially in 2001. Whither the legal argument then? Should he receive commission on more recent Emberleaf sales?
Huntersforge
Well-Known Member
Once the Chinese find out the knife design is popular they’ll be knocking them out for buttons.
Let’s see how their lawyers get on with that gig
Let’s see how their lawyers get on with that gig
hedge hunter
Well-Known Member
Just buy a alan wood knife and be done simply the best
long_range_rob
Well-Known Member
I have met the guys at Emberleaf and frankly seeing the work that goes into every knife it’s truly amazing they are priced as low as they are. They a genuinely nice guys and I have no doubt they had no option other than to go down this road.
Imitation is perhaps the sincerest form of flattery and let’s face it this happens in every field of business. If it were my business and I believed I was right I would do as they have.
Imitation is perhaps the sincerest form of flattery and let’s face it this happens in every field of business. If it were my business and I believed I was right I would do as they have.
devon deer stalker
Well-Known Member
I have just started out on my journey of knife making, what I find disappointing about this situation is that another knife maker has threatened legal action against another fellow knife maker, it might seem to be a strange statement by me, but so far all I have got from other knife makers is constructive criticism and help, perhaps I am being a little naive, but until I read about this threatening letter knife makers appeared to be one big happy family willing to help each other out.
As an example, I found this site, DIY Knifemaker's Info Center they encourage you to copy their designs and provide templates.
Oh well you learn something new every day, I just need to be careful now that a well known company might copy my butt ugly creations!
The only winners here will be the solicitors.
Cheers
Richard
As an example, I found this site, DIY Knifemaker's Info Center they encourage you to copy their designs and provide templates.
Oh well you learn something new every day, I just need to be careful now that a well known company might copy my butt ugly creations!
The only winners here will be the solicitors.
Cheers
Richard
I think you could pretty much take the top dozen knife makers, compare their range of knives, finding that some are so similar, that they must have copied from each other 
Or, maybe that over decades, people have found that a particular shaped knife works best for bushcraft, skinning, gralloching, a boar knife, etc' !
And then, having a knife that crosses over, would be common sense, such as a gralloching knife, that skins the animal too ?
Even MORE interesting, I just googled "Antique Butchers Knives", and the general shape of the Cael, has been around before either of the knife makers concerned were even born, it's just a smaller version for deer, rather than what a butcher might require !
You, and I have had this conversation before, and I PM'd you some pricing FACTS. I see you're still wearing Rose tinted
then 
Or, maybe that over decades, people have found that a particular shaped knife works best for bushcraft, skinning, gralloching, a boar knife, etc' !
And then, having a knife that crosses over, would be common sense, such as a gralloching knife, that skins the animal too ?
Even MORE interesting, I just googled "Antique Butchers Knives", and the general shape of the Cael, has been around before either of the knife makers concerned were even born, it's just a smaller version for deer, rather than what a butcher might require !
You, and I have had this conversation before, and I PM'd you some pricing FACTS. I see you're still wearing Rose tinted
then 
Never has a more sensible statement been made!
I design and make things in metal but I am only involved in one-off commissions, so my market is quite different...the profit margins are zilch so no competitor would be able to get even the money I did as they were not able to guarantee the originality of the "art" object. I would have thought if you are into production of a limited range of designs of high quality product like Emberleaf their fear should be chinese copies at £10 rather than competition from an artisan knife maker with none of their tens of thousands spent on brand positioning and marketing.
I am a bit surprised at Emberleaf's attitude, or at least their claim to originality...their Cael design with the sway back shape I had assumed was a slimmed down variation based on the hunting/skinning Sears' Nessmuk pattern through standard butcher's boning knives...a lot of the American blade smiths have developed not dissimilar "Nessmuk" knives from them over the last 130 years...form (hopefully) follows function....that convex blade shape ideal for skinning has not changed much since they were first snapped from flint.
If the Chinese can produce a functional and reasonably finished lock knife and ship it to the UK where the local ironmongers can afford to sell it for less than £5.00 a fixed blade knife like the Cael should be a doddle...
Alan
ps...Taken me too long to find the images I was looking for and see most of my points have been made hey ho...
I am a bit surprised at Emberleaf's attitude, or at least their claim to originality...their Cael design with the sway back shape I had assumed was a slimmed down variation based on the hunting/skinning Sears' Nessmuk pattern through standard butcher's boning knives...a lot of the American blade smiths have developed not dissimilar "Nessmuk" knives from them over the last 130 years...form (hopefully) follows function....that convex blade shape ideal for skinning has not changed much since they were first snapped from flint.
If the Chinese can produce a functional and reasonably finished lock knife and ship it to the UK where the local ironmongers can afford to sell it for less than £5.00 a fixed blade knife like the Cael should be a doddle...
Alan
ps...Taken me too long to find the images I was looking for and see most of my points have been made hey ho...
So you sincerely believe emberleaf were the first knife maker to make that design of knife?
You copied my bent pointy bit of metal! Wahhh
I raise you my
A very good example! Pretty much all bushcraft knives follw the same general shape because that is what works. Do any of the top makers of said knives sue each other for shape mimicing? Erm...no.
I can’t see the need for a knife that costs over £100
When i was a butcher I used nothing but victorinox, still use the same brand today, over 20 years and the blades are as good today as they have ever been!
My stalking knife is a EKA swing blade, that’s because a clients gave me one as a gift.
These fancy expensive knives are designed to cut the stalkers wallet and are for in my opinion for the tarts amongst us
If they are that good, why do I see no end for sale second hand in the classifieds and see hardly any of the bomb proof Mora clippers?
When i was a butcher I used nothing but victorinox, still use the same brand today, over 20 years and the blades are as good today as they have ever been!
My stalking knife is a EKA swing blade, that’s because a clients gave me one as a gift.
These fancy expensive knives are designed to cut the stalkers wallet and are for in my opinion for the tarts amongst us
If they are that good, why do I see no end for sale second hand in the classifieds and see hardly any of the bomb proof Mora clippers?
I don’t have an Emberleaf knife, though several stalkers I do know have them and really like them. The design is certainly attractive, but not one I’d personally call innovative. I have plenty of knives from custom makers - even ones where I’ve been lucky enough to have input to the design - but trying to claim IP over a new blade design is akin to claiming IP over the Bowie or Bushcraft, in that it’s all been done before.
If there was serious libel involved then by all means address it, but sending out legal letters on the basis of some obscure derogatory comments on Facebook or Instagram perhaps suggests that social media is not the right channel on which to market your products - you’ll be sending out letters all the time and only the lawyers will be smiling. Consequently, all that looks to have been achieved is to bring attention to a smaller competitor, and everyone knows the public loves an underdog.
Both the stalking and custom knife communities are small ones, and I would imagine the reputational damage from this action is going to have far more impact on Emberleaf’s sales than was ever anticipated when the decision was made to send out the letter. Whatever the reality, the perception now is that they have acted irrationally against a smaller competitor based on something as subjective as a blade design. Some result!
If there was serious libel involved then by all means address it, but sending out legal letters on the basis of some obscure derogatory comments on Facebook or Instagram perhaps suggests that social media is not the right channel on which to market your products - you’ll be sending out letters all the time and only the lawyers will be smiling. Consequently, all that looks to have been achieved is to bring attention to a smaller competitor, and everyone knows the public loves an underdog.
Both the stalking and custom knife communities are small ones, and I would imagine the reputational damage from this action is going to have far more impact on Emberleaf’s sales than was ever anticipated when the decision was made to send out the letter. Whatever the reality, the perception now is that they have acted irrationally against a smaller competitor based on something as subjective as a blade design. Some result!
To be fair if you sold a secondhand mora the money would go in the postage. I have sold a few face to face at the SD meetings but that is because I was given super duper knifes by others.
Tom D
Well-Known Member
I can’t believe they’ve bothered with this. It can’t go anywhere, I think whilst it would be possible to trademark a name such as cael, trying to,protect a shape of knife is ridiculous. As has been pointed out that shape existed years before ember leaf. They should concentrate on marketing their craftsmanship or materials or whatever it it that makes them unique, because it definitely isn’t the shape of the knife.
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