Ingenious, but illegal

Part of me is impressed by the ingenuity, but I don't condone illegality.

The judge's comment is interesting too.... "but had to deter anyone else from trying to "change the genetic makeup of the creatures".. "

I thought we crossed that line a long time ago.


BBC News - Montana breeder jailed for cloning giant sheep for trophy hunting - BBC News
Montana breeder jailed for cloning giant sheep for trophy hunting - BBC News
No different here in the UK with shooting many male deer to make a better gene pool for the "heads" that is done all the time!
Fine in domestic live stock but playing "John Hammond" with wild deer is quite laughable as they all eat the same.

The US do this with their white tail deer with breeding Bucks making 1000's of $$$
 
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No different here in the UK with shooting many male deer to make a better gene pool for the "heads" that is done all the time!
Fine in domestic live stock but playing "John Hammond" with wild deer is quite laughable as they all eat the same.

The US do with their white tail deer with breeding Bucks making 1000's of $$$
Tim
I think that is very fair comment.

Nim
 
As far as I can see, the thing that he did that was illegal was importing a non-native species into an area where it was forbidden to do so to protect the indigenous species.
Same sort of legislation we have that is supposed to prevent people moving sika into new areas.
The fact he did it by cloning is neither here nor there. All he was doing was producing a purebred male of a species that he couldn't import as a live animal (as a live animal would have been a bit difficult to smuggle in).
He's not created any bizarre "frankenstein" sheep. He's just crossbred his imported stock with the local breeds. Same as is done in livestock breeding all over the world.
But obviously, where the local wild species are at risk introducing other species that may hybridise is not permitted.
 
No different here in the UK with shooting many male deer to make a better gene pool for the "heads" that is done all the time!
Fine in domestic live stock but playing "John Hammond" with wild deer is quite laughable as they all eat the same.

The US do this with their white tail deer with breeding Bucks making 1000's of $$$
It is and it isn’t.
Shooting the worse stags is kind of enhancing the existing gene pool.
Which may or may not happen naturally.

What he did was akin to bringing in sika for shooting and not expecting them to escape and interbreed leading to a dilution in the existing local gene pool
 
It is and it isn’t.
Shooting the worse stags is kind of enhancing the existing gene pool.
Which may or may not happen naturally.

What he did was akin to bringing in sika for shooting and not expecting them to escape and interbreed leading to a dilution in the existing local gene pool
Well we wont know as they don't give them any chance, it is only the latter years since the modern rifle could be relied on day in day out we have been selecting a gene pool. And reds/fallow/roe have been doing ok way before the people who want to manage them. You can't do it with Muntjac or CWD and I guess Sika as people don't seem shoot enough as they can't get at them because of the way they are, yes people do get them but as far as being selective it must be difficult
So that is 50% of the UK deer not managed lol
 
It is and it isn’t.
Shooting the worse stags is kind of enhancing the existing gene pool.
Which may or may not happen naturally.

What he did was akin to bringing in sika for shooting and not expecting them to escape and interbreed leading to a dilution in the existing local gene pool
Problem is if you lined up 10 stags/bucks and 10 hunters/deer managers and asked them to rank them from best to worst I bet there would be differences between them. One person's best may not be that of another.

Also what we determine to be the best physical attributes (antlers mainly) may not actually be the best for survival.
 
Pardon my ignorance, but is 'sheep hunting' a thing? It doesn't sound very challenging to me.... neither would cow hunting, for example.
 
Problem is if you lined up 10 stags/bucks and 10 hunters/deer managers and asked them to rank them from best to worst I bet there would be differences between them. One person's best may not be that of another.

Also what we determine to be the best physical attributes (antlers mainly) may not actually be the best for survival.
Like judging at these shows some like a fine built pony then the heaver one with more neck will be pulled in first as the judge favours that type.

Is there a "best head deer mangers course" or like Captain Mannering self appointed of the Walmington-on-Sea Platoon
:norty:
 
Problem is if you lined up 10 stags/bucks and 10 hunters/deer managers and asked them to rank them from best to worst I bet there would be differences between them. One person's best may not be that of another.

Also what we determine to be the best physical attributes (antlers mainly) may not actually be the best for survival.
Oh yeah totally agree.

But how many stalkers in charge of an area have left a killer stag as the dominant one? Or left a perruque buck to pass on their genes.
Sadly this one got hit by a train.
If it hadn’t should it have been left to sire offspring?
IMG_0084.jpeg
 
Oh yeah totally agree.

But how many stalkers in charge of an area have left a killer stag as the dominant one? Or left a perruque buck to pass on their genes.
Sadly this one got hit by a train.
If it hadn’t should it have been left to sire offspring?
View attachment 386384
I suppose a peruque would be more likely to be killed by a predator if it was unable to see or had a bad infection making it weaker. This may prevent it from breeding, but as we don't have predators that's where we should step in and cull what would be deemed weaker or less desirable.

The picture if the roe above looks quite healthy, I'd expect being able to produce that much antler mass shows there is enough food and minerals available and the deer was pretty strong.

As abnormal antler growth is often attributed to injury it could be that anything seen one year may not be genetic and may not repeat in subsequent or previous years.
 
Generally I was led to believe that disease and predation take out the old, weak and young none of which aligns with antler growth, so if you cull similarly your mimicking nature.
 
Pardon my ignorance, but is 'sheep hunting' a thing? It doesn't sound very challenging to me.... neither would cow hunting, for example.
In North America sheep hunting (bighorn, wild sheep) is not only “a thing” but it’s a very much a rich man’s game. While a regular person can indeed draw a tag and hunt, the drawing odds are astronomical. However, if you have deep pockets, nearly every management entity (usual a state fish and game commission or department) offers some form of high bidder tag (often called a Governors Tag) with the proceeds funding wild sheep programs.

All of this sounds quite nice, until you get into the details of the tags. Whereas a normal tag is for a set period of time, and a specific geographical unit, the governors tags are often valid for an extremely extended season, and multiple units, sometimes statewide. Add on that particularly impressing rams are homebodies, and often those home ranges are the exclusive or near exclusive hunting concession of a single outfitter - there is big money involved. Not only that, unlike many record heads, sheep are often named for the shooter.

So it would work somehting like this. Doctor Moneypockets is high bidder for a state sheep tag, in a state currently known to have a potential world record sheep. Once he pays the bargain sum of $50,000 for the tag, he contracts with the outfitter and they decide that in two months, when his schedule is the most clear, Dr Moneypockets will fly out and shoot the ram. During those two months the outfitter hires some local guides that do nothing except live in the mountains and keep tabs on the ram. If some lowly peasant has also drawn a tag for that area and manages to scout the super ram, those guides will legally interfere, maybe spooking the ram so they can relocate later. The day arrives, and so does Dr Moneypockets, he helicopters in, spends a day or two on the mountain becuase they know exactly where the ram is. After shooting he hands a nice large wad of cash to the outfitter and the guides, then proceeds to let the wild sheep society know that the “Moneypockets Ram” has been taken and will be officially measured after the drying period.

That this gentleman was starting a captive breeding program to create potential giant horned sheep was about cashing in on that immense revenue stream. A giant sheep shot in a high fenced pasture would never be eligible for recognition, so at some point this individual was surely going to get these bloodlines out into the wild.
 
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