Jelen Advanced deer management

[willie_gunn]

Thanks.

I attended the course because I have an interest in and want to learn all about deer and their management and because of my limited experience and knowledge felt that attending a course would benefit me greatly. I was not disappointed, I learned more in those three days than I have learned in the last year of stalking and avid reading. I am not aware of any acceptance criteria but as the course is about deer and woodland management and not about stalking per se I would not think that acceptance criteria were warranted. Of course deer management involves culling and this aspect was covered, hence the shooting test, but my interest in this course was in learning about all of the other aspects of deer management like the impact on biodiversity etc. etc. etc.
I have not been lucky enough to have a mentor to teach me these things, the closest my father got to the country side was the back garden for a fag, but in all I do I am keen to learn as much as I can and I personally find that I gain from structured learning that I can then apply in the field.

Atb

​Martin

Martin

Thank you for the comprehensive response. It is quite thought provoking.

When I saw the other posters comments about DSC 1 and DSC 2 as pre-requisites to the course I have to say that my initial reaction was much the same - why do the Deer Managers course if you haven't already done the first two steps? But I think your reply gives a very honest answer to this question.

Whilst being an experienced deer stalker might give a certain insight into deer management, unless we're proposing that the Deer Managers course is in some way a DSC Level 3 (cue the incoming) then deer management needn't necessarily, or even primarily, be about culling deer.

You can look at deer management just as equally from the perspective of forester, woodland manager, biodiversity officer, land agent, factor, farmer, etc., none of which have as a pre-requisite the ability to go out and shoot deer. Indeed knowing how to formulate a cull plan doesn't meant that you have to be the one to go out and execute it - I would guess there are members of this site who get told what numbers they need to cull?

Doubtless some will criticise both you and the course for not requiring DSC1 and DSC2, but good on you for (a) being interested enough to invest the time time, money and effort to do the course, and (b) for posting such an honest reply.

willie_gunn

 

[Sharpie]

Thanks.

I attended the course because I have an interest in and want to learn all about deer and their management and because of my limited experience and knowledge felt that attending a course would benefit me greatly. I was not disappointed, I learned more in those three days than I have learned in the last year of stalking and avid reading. I am not aware of any acceptance criteria but as the course is about deer and woodland management and not about stalking per se I would not think that acceptance criteria were warranted. Of course deer management involves culling and this aspect was covered, hence the shooting test, but my interest in this course was in learning about all of the other aspects of deer management like the impact on biodiversity etc. etc. etc.
I have not been lucky enough to have a mentor to teach me these things, the closest my father got to the country side was the back garden for a fag, but in all I do I am keen to learn as much as I can and I personally find that I gain from structured learning that I can then apply in the field.

Atb

​Martin

That makes perfect sense.

I am in a similar position, perhaps a little further forward.

I have approached the educational side differently, attending SNH Best Practice events whenever I can, covering similar ground. For free.

And have been mentored by a few very good guys. £300 would pay for maybe 4 or 5 guided stalks, which I think might be a better initial investment.

 

[Sharpie]

Probably best getting in touch with Jelen Deer if you're interested in doing the course.

I daresay someone will chip in with an explanation.

No ambition to become an "Advanced Deer Manager". Perhaps "an introduction to Advanced Deer Management" would be a less ambiguous description.

Has anyone received their certificates yet, would be interesting to know what they say.

 

[Taff]

Why not have this course instead of DSC, it seems there is more information, a harder shooting test, and not the cost of witnessed stalks, and you can call yourself a deer manager after it.
even I may do it, as it's only the cost of 3 carcasses.

 

[willie_gunn]

Why not have this course instead of DSC, it seems there is more information, a harder shooting test, and not the cost of witnessed stalks, and you can call yourself a deer manager after it.
even I may do it, as it's only the cost of 3 carcasses.

Probably because the DSC2 is a "practically based qualification which enables candidates to demonstrate their knowledge and competence in legally, safely and humanely culling deer and dealing with carcasses hygienically", whereas the Deer Manager's Course is about managing deer from a variety of perspectives, not just stalking.

Each has different objectives and different assessment/testing criteria. It's a bit like comparing a chainsaw certificate to a course on forestry management.

willie_gunn

 

[thibaud]

Being booked on the same course in September and not having much deer stalking experience, my angle is the same as Defender. I think people are getting confused with the premises of DSC qualifications (I also have DSC1 by the way, having never actually shot a deer, which says much about that particular qualification) and the ADM course.

From my point of view as someone with a background in countryside management and woodland conservation, I don't see that DSC2 should be a pre-requisite. If it were, some woodland ecology or management qualification would equally be required and how many stalkers actually have one? Many people are involved in deer management, not all of which are out stalking regularly, if ever. I really don't see where the urge to criticize and exclude people comes from. As Defender's pointed out, not all of us have had the privilege to regularly stalk so any opportunity to learn best practice, broaden our understanding and learn from others should be applauded. I for one will be able to apply much of what the course offers in my daily work, none of which will involve a firearm. The rest will be very useful as I develop the particular skills needed for stalking and the culling of deer so at £299, I think it is worth my money and I look forward to the actual course, having already completed 4 of the 14 home study assignments.

I am sure people will disagree and some, justifiably so, will hark at the continuing drive throughout all society to require qualifications for anything and everything where common sense and experience would often be of better service. Nevertheless, there should be nothing wrong with gaining knowledge from anywhere possible if the end result is an informed, professional, safe and humane stalker.

 

[Shropshire Lad]

Being booked on the same course in September and not having much deer stalking experience, my angle is the same as Defender. I think people are getting confused with the premises of DSC qualifications (I also have DSC1 by the way, having never actually shot a deer, which says much about that particular qualification) and the ADM course.

From my point of view as someone with a background in countryside management and woodland conservation, I don't see that DSC2 should be a pre-requisite. If it were, some woodland ecology or management qualification would equally be required and how many stalkers actually have one? Many people are involved in deer management, not all of which are out stalking regularly, if ever. I really don't see where the urge to criticize and exclude people comes from. As Defender's pointed out, not all of us have had the privilege to regularly stalk so any opportunity to learn best practice, broaden our understanding and learn from others should be applauded. I for one will be able to apply much of what the course offers in my daily work, none of which will involve a firearm. The rest will be very useful as I develop the particular skills needed for stalking and the culling of deer so at £299, I think it is worth my money and I look forward to the actual course, having already completed 4 of the 14 home study assignments.

I am sure people will disagree and some, justifiably so, will hark at the continuing drive throughout all society to require qualifications for anything and everything where common sense and experience would often be of better service. Nevertheless, there should be nothing wrong with gaining knowledge from anywhere possible if the end result is an informed, professional, safe and humane stalker.

​Well said

 

[AllThingsShooting]

​Well said

​+ 1

 

[Sharpie]

​+ 1

Agreed, this is an interesting course. I'm also tempted to sign up, although it is very unlikely I would have to apply most of the content. The pursuit of knowledge in itself is never a bad thing.

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

Surely those who have level 1&2 would get more out of the course..

I cant see for those teaching the course how its possible to keep those with experience engaged while teaching the same "Advanced" course to a newbie with no experience

If people are saying no need for the above then is the course advanced enough?

Good for those whose interest is keen enough to invest in furthering their knowledge

 

[thibaud]

Surely those who have level 1&2 would get more out of the course..

I cant see for those teaching the course how its possible to keep those with experience engaged while teaching the same "Advanced" course to a newbie with no experience

If people are saying no need for the above then is the course advanced enough?

Good for those whose interest is keen enough to invest in furthering their knowledge

I would agree with you that this is certainly geared towards people that want to broaden their knowledge of deer rather than to make you essentially a better stalker. I would have thought stalking and practice would do that, although if you take on substantial land holdings and want to maximise business opportunities and/or other woodland management aims, you might want to understand how to best do that, which neither DSC1 nor DSC2 are geared towards. So to me this is more of a standalone course that builds on a variety of experience, although admittedly having substantial stalking knowledge would be of great value, but not essential as much of the deer behaviour and ecology can be learned in other ways.

Furthermore, with all due respect, some of these 'newbies' you've mentioned might include people with extensive land management experience or substantial other knowledge such as woodland biology, mammal ecology, conservation or even livestock farming. My argument would be that it seems the course is targeted at a broad range of people that may include experienced stalkers as well as land managers, for which the practicalities of stalking may not be the sole driver for choosing the course in the first place. Perhaps the title misleads people into thinking that it is a DSC3-type qualification when it seems to me to be more about understanding the place of deer management in resources management issues, going in depth into deer biology and supporting habitats to give any deer manager the tools and knowledge to prepare and write evidence-based management plans from a business (resource) and/or conservation perspective. That person may or may not be the person ultimately delivering the management plan on the ground.

From my own personal point of view, I hope to get the opportunity to learn from the tutors as well as other attending people, particularly experienced stalkers and I will of course be happy to share my own experiences in population studies using combination plot techniques and woodland management. I suggest you contact Mike and see if the course themes are too simplistic before making judgements which ultimately are a little offensive to other people here, including myself.

 

[barkin` buck]

Interesting to see yet another thread on SD filled with negativity when started with all good intentions. I also think it is funny that people give such gravitas to DSC 2 when possibly someone can go and get one by only shooting 3 deer in total. I personally know someone who has passed his DSC 2 course and in theory be better qualified than me (only DSC1, feeble I know) and has only shot 8 deer in his life, my several hundred count for nothing. All these courses can only be judged by how they benefit the individual taking them, and not judged against each other.

 

[thibaud]

You're quite right. Ultimately, like everywhere else, knowledge is accrued over time in a variety of way according to wide variations in individual interests. Makes life more interesting. Morale of the story is that I am looking forward to the course and I fully accept it might not be for everybody. I also fully accept that no course will ever make myself or anybody else a 'Deer Manager'. Courses are only here to assist and support learning through experience and practice. There's always more than one way to skin a deer!

 

[defender]

That makes perfect sense.

I am in a similar position, perhaps a little further forward.

I have approached the educational side differently, attending SNH Best Practice events whenever I can, covering similar ground. For free.

And have been mentored by a few very good guys. £300 would pay for maybe 4 or 5 guided stalks, which I think might be a better initial investment.

Hi Sharpie,

I have been on a number of guided stalks over the last year with six different guides, all of them great guys, including a number from this site and have more booked, undoubtedly these stalks have greatly assisted in my skills and knowledge of stalking and fieldcraft, however as stated I learned more on this course about the other aspects of deer management than I could ever hope to learn on a stalk, not because of any failings of the guide but due to the nature of the outing, a guided stalk for example is not going to be focusing on how to conduct a deer impact assessment.
I also have completed the DSC1, but believe that both courses are just steps in my life learning, I know that courses do not suit some and are not the preferred method of learning for others, but for me it is the way I like to learn because I work a 50-60 hour week and do not have the opportunities to learn in, perhaps, more traditional ways, but I know that courses alone are meaningless without time on the ground putting it all into practice.
I am not suggesting that this route is better than any other but if others like to take courses then I would recommend this course, equally if the course was crap i would have let others know.

Atb

Martin

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

I would agree with you that this is certainly geared towards people that want to broaden their knowledge of deer rather than to make you essentially a better stalker. I would have thought stalking and practice would do that, although if you take on substantial land holdings and want to maximise business opportunities and/or other woodland management aims, you might want to understand how to best do that, which neither DSC1 nor DSC2 are geared towards. So to me this is more of a standalone course that builds on a variety of experience, although admittedly having substantial stalking knowledge would be of great value, but not essential as much of the deer behaviour and ecology can be learned in other ways.

Furthermore, with all due respect, some of these 'newbies' you've mentioned might include people with extensive land management experience or substantial other knowledge such as woodland biology, mammal ecology, conservation or even livestock farming. My argument would be that it seems the course is targeted at a broad range of people that may include experienced stalkers as well as land managers, for which the practicalities of stalking may not be the sole driver for choosing the course in the first place. Perhaps the title misleads people into thinking that it is a DSC3-type qualification when it seems to me to be more about understanding the place of deer management in resources management issues, going in depth into deer biology and supporting habitats to give any deer manager the tools and knowledge to prepare and write evidence-based management plans from a business (resource) and/or conservation perspective. That person may or may not be the person ultimately delivering the management plan on the ground.

From my own personal point of view, I hope to get the opportunity to learn from the tutors as well as other attending people, particularly experienced stalkers and I will of course be happy to share my own experiences in population studies using combination plot techniques and woodland management. I suggest you contact Mike and see if the course themes are too simplistic before making judgements which ultimately are a little offensive to other people here, including myself.

Just because a post contains views differing from yours does not make it offensive so please try not to be so melodramatic ..

Thankyou for suggesting after 8 posts i contact Mike.. As it happens we speak freely via pm and have each others number.

Whilst we dont always see eye to eye i respect Mike as a businessman looking after his family.

You suggested numerous people who could all take the course from many diferent back grounds even those that have not shot a deer.

Id be really keen to watch them take the Advanced shooting test and their suprise at seeing a huge pair of chopsticks being offered them.

Any course IMO to be succesfull has one priority and that is making sure where possible the candidates are on a level playing field

Again imo everybody benefits from more indepth training rather than time spent going over the basics for the benefit of less experienced

Ive yet to see a snorkeller sat next to a diver on a deep wreck course

Why take an Advanced Deer Course without taking the first step of level one first. Without doubt it remains one of the best courses i have ever done.

Terry

 

[willie_gunn]

Terry

You make some very valid points in what continues to be an interesting thread. I certainly agree with you that differing views shouldn't automatically be perceived as being somehow offensive.

On reflection, my view is that both courses (Jelen and BDS) include an Advanced Shooting Test only because it helps justify the course to the target audience (i.e. stalkers). The shooting test really adds little of benefit to the course itself, but if your role as a training provider is strongly related to the stalking community then you can't afford to ignore them! Interestingly, for the BDS course at least, the shooting test is just an option and is not mandatory. If you decide to take it your certificate contains an amendment that you passed the Advanced Shooting Test.

I don't know if the same is true for the Jelen course. Perhaps one of the recent attendees, or Jelen themselves, could clarify?

Even though it's optional, the BDS course still states that "Students are normally required to have completed DSC Level 1 and preferably DSC Level 2"....though define "normally"

I think it's an interesting lesson in psychology. If you want your target audience to perceive, at least in their own minds, that the course is another step on from DSC1 and DSC2 then include something called an "Advanced Shooting Test", in that it somehow confers bragging rights on those who pass it, disregarding the fact that it is a "non-essential" part of the course itself.

Dom

 

[howa243]

I am sure we all know that shooting (like lots of things) cannot be taught to a position of great competence in a classroom. It needs time and experience on the ground and classroom teaching can at best truncate that time scale. Formal teaching of the nature described here, is really folks with lots of experience passing it on to others. Something which a forum such as this might be able to organise for little or no cost. What would worry me about a course with a title like this, is that it might mean that stalkers with very little experience waving a certificate under the nose of a landowner with the hope that it may gain them permissions. The fact is to do the job properly (management of deer) takes time on the ground in the company of deer and putting rounds through your rifle. Think I ought to say that learning through such courses as this cannot be a bad thing and that at the price it seems very reasonable for the time involved.

 

[Shropshire Lad]

This is such a shame. I've had some really great interactions with very helpful people in my short time on Stalking Directory. My first proper post was motivated by the desire to share my honest experiences of a course I went on to increase my knowledge about deer and deer management. It happened to be delivered by Jelen Deer. It was great and I highly recommend the course to anyone with similar learning objectives. Unfortunately, some of the posters in this thread have left me with the impression that their motivation for posting is not to share or to help, but rather to take pot-shots at people. Like Thibaud, I find it a little offensive too.

 

[willie_gunn]

This is such a shame. I've had some really great interactions with very helpful people in my short time on Stalking Directory. My first proper post was motivated by the desire to share my honest experiences of a course I went on to increase my knowledge about deer and deer management. It happened to be delivered by Jelen Deer. It was great and I highly recommend the course to anyone with similar learning objectives. Unfortunately, some of the posters in this thread have left me with the impression that their motivation for posting is not to share or to help, but rather to take pot-shots at people. Like Thibaud, I find it a little offensive too.

Shropshire Lad

Apologies if anything I've posted has caused you offense, but I thought I was supporting both the course in general and your - and others - actions in taking it specifically.

Threads about stalking-related courses, in particular, will always excite opinion. Some on here are convinced that courses are a positive development and that they lead to an enlightened stalking population that will look at things more from a deer management perspective and less from one of "if it's brown it's down". Others are equally convinced that these courses are (a) primarily designed to make money for the training providers, (b) provide the thin end of the wedge to mandatory testing, and/or (c) the reason behind possibly losing their own stalking to someone with less experience but more qualifications.

Personally I see them as a positive measure, but I sure as heck understand why others view them differently!

Also these courses are not cheap, and people want to understand what they are getting for their hard-earned cash. Questioning the cost, and indeed the value, is all part of that process.

Posts can easily be misinterpreted, as I know all too well. Thin skins and internet forums are not a happy combination! What one person is thinking when they write a post can be perceived quite differently by another person reading it. The problem with forums like this is that they are conducted over the Internet, a medium that does not allow any emotion or reaction to be seen, either by the author or the intended audience. Things are said that on forums that would never be said face-to-face, simply because there is no personal interaction.

willie_gunn

 

[I. Farticus]

Shropshire Lad

Apologies if anything I've posted has caused you offense, but I thought I was supporting both the course in general and your - and others - actions in taking it specifically.

Threads about stalking-related courses, in particular, will always excite opinion. Some on here are convinced that courses are a positive development and that they lead to an enlightened stalking population that will look at things more from a deer management perspective and less from one of "if it's brown it's down". Others are equally convinced that these courses are (a) primarily designed to make money for the training providers, (b) provide the thin end of the wedge to either mandatory testing, and/or (c) the reason behind possibly losing their own stalking to someone with less experience but more qualifications.

Personally I see them as a positive measure, but I sure as heck understand why others view them differently!

Also these courses are not cheap, and people want to understand what they are getting for their hard-earned cash. Questioning the cost, and indeed the value, is all part of that process.

Posts can easily be misinterpreted, as I know all too well. Thin skins and internet forums are not a happy combination! What one person is thinking when they write a post can be perceived quite differently by another person reading it. The problem with forums like this is that they are conducted over the Internet, a medium that does not allow any emotion or reaction to be seen, either by the author or the intended audience. Things are said that on forums that would never be said face-to-face, simply because there is no personal interaction.

willie_gunn

Dom

+1

Cheers
iain