Lambs stinking of fox

[VSS]

I have no idea why Tim always disclaims a fox killing lambs. I've witnessed it several times, and badgers. Healthy lambs and ewes. I've watched them stalk from down wind and grab healthy lambs and drag them off all be it slowly. I've watched them circle a casting ewe, I've watched them ripping the abdomen of ewes stuck on their backs heavy in lamb.
I have zero tolerance of fox's, they are a predator period.

Yes, I've seen all those things too. But rarely. And I should think I've spent more time in the company of sheep than you or most other members of this site, so it's not like I haven't had the opportunity to observe what goes on.
After 40 years of shepherding, lambing thousands of sheep under a multitude of different management systems, I can assure you that the number of losses of live, healthy lambs to foxes is so small as to be insignificant.
Mostly they take lambs that are already dead, or severely compromised, and poor shepherding is the cause of most of those losses. So the fox gets blamed, because it's not human nature to blame one's self.
So yes, foxes eat lambs. Occasionally live ones. But if the standard of shepherding is improved the losses won't happen.
Killing foxes doesn't significantly reduce lamb losses, it just reduces the number that ultimately get eaten by foxes. The same percentage would still end up dead, even without the foxes being present.
The only thing that will significantly bring down lamb losses is a change in management and improved shepherding skills.

 

[Smellydog]

Yes, I've seen all those things too. But rarely. And I should think I've spent more time in the company of sheep than you or most other members of this site, so it's not like I haven't had the opportunity to observe what goes on.
After 40 years of shepherding, lambing thousands of sheep under a multitude of different management systems, I can assure you that the number of losses of live, healthy lambs to foxes is so small as to be insignificant.
Mostly they take lambs that are already dead, or severely compromised, and poor shepherding is the cause of most of those losses. So the fox gets blamed, because it's not human nature to blame one's self.
So yes, foxes eat lambs. Occasionally live ones. But if the standard of shepherding is improved the losses won't happen.
Killing foxes doesn't significantly reduce lamb losses, it just reduces the number that ultimately get eaten by foxes. The same percentage would still end up dead, even without the foxes being present.
The only thing that will significantly bring down lamb losses is a change in management and improved shepherding skills.

I don't blame the fox for doing what comes naturally and a shite shepherd is soon apparent.
However, if ignored and fox numbers rise due to no err... management, then pressure for food rises. Just the same with badger.

In my experience it is a total random outcome whether a good or bad shepherd.
A lot of lambs or ewes may look fine one day and during the night fall weak, just when Charlie or badger arrives. The good shepherd might not arrive until morning but the damage is done.

Humans also like to simplify situations. Rationalize and pigeon hole things apart from not blaming themselves Tim.
Take the photo of the mauled lamb.
Straight away you blame the farm dog!
That doesn't make any sense at all.
Dogs hang onto the back of the neck usually in my experience for a start. You suggested the farm dog, it would have blood on its chops and promptly in a hole.

Irrespective of being a hyper critic of shepherding tactics and methods this **** goes on at a very sensitive vulnerable time for thousands of shepherd's the length and breadth of Britain.
Get'm bloody shot!

 

[Flash G 74]

Hello, In my teens i use to help our family friend who was a Shepherd on a farm in the Village, We used to stay over night in the Shepherds hut so could be right there if any problem with foxes, how many do this now ??

 

[Essexsussex]

I’m learning a lot from these lamb and fox posts thanks everyone for contributing.

For all the years I’ve been shooting this is the first year I’ve seen foxes slinking about ewes and lambs (grew up amongst never ending arable and at best a few pigs or cows) and it’s fascinating working out what they are up to and triangulating it with the benefit of all of your years of experience (pro and anti the perceived damage they do).

 

[VSS]

.

Irrespective of being a hyper critic of shepherding tactics and methods this **** goes on at a very sensitive vulnerable time for thousands of shepherd's the length and breadth of Britain.
Get'm bloody shot!

And likewise, this **** that "we must shoot the foxes to save the lambs" goes on every year. And it makes **** all difference to overall lamb mortality.
Get'm bloody shot by all means, and protect the ground nesting birds and the smallholders' chickens, but please don't kid yourself that you're making any significant contribution to the sheep industry.

 

[BenBhoy]

100% with Tim on this. I'm not as old (or hairy) as him so not quite been around sheep as long, but if I was to list all the factors affecting lamb mortality for the national flock, mr fox wouldn't even make the pie chart.

 

[old keeper]

I have no idea why Tim always disclaims a fox killing lambs. I've witnessed it several times, and badgers. Healthy lambs and ewes. I've watched them stalk from down wind and grab healthy lambs and drag them off all be it slowly. I've watched them circle a casting ewe, I've watched them ripping the abdomen of ewes stuck on their backs heavy in lamb.
I have zero tolerance of fox's, they are a predator period.

I'm with SD here. I, too have seen foxes taking lambs on more than one occasion. I remember one particular time, I was tucked away in a hedge waiting for pigeons, and a fox approached a pair of lambs and circled them for several minutes before stretching its neck out and gently pulling one lamb away from its sibling. It then proceeded to pull the lamb towards the hedge where I was. It made no attempt to kill the lamb obviously wanting to be in cover. The couple ended up about fifteen yards from me, at which stage I made my presence known, the fox let go of the lamb and ran off, it was rolled over with the 12 bore.

 

[Smellydog]

please don't kid yourself that you're making any significant contribution to the sheep industry.

I'm not Tim. In no way do I view myself as a super hero sent to save the sheep industry, if anything in fact, they probably owe me!

 

[Smellydog]

I don't think it's as straightforward as some think.
Topography, location, good shepherd, bad shepherd. High or low predator numbers. One farm verses another.
Nothing can be discredited between one man's experience verses another.

 

[BenBhoy]

Just hope you're all going to enjoy some British lamb this Sunday!!

 

[VSS]

I don't think it's as straightforward as some think.
Topography, location, good shepherd, bad shepherd. High or low predator numbers. One farm verses another.
Nothing can be discredited between one man's experience verses another.

That is fair comment.

I'll give you an example of the sort of thing I'm referring to when I say "poor shepherding":

I follow lots of farming accounts on Instagram. Several hundred, at least. At this time of year they're full of photos and videos of people delivering lambs, usually with a comment such as " lucky I was on hand to save that one" etc etc.
Well I have two issues with that: Firstly, around 94% of ewes don't need any assistance to give birth. A large number are being "assisted" unnecessarily. Secondly, in the vast majority of cases, probably in excess of 90%, the shepherd in the video is not bothering to wear an obstetric glove.
So, what happens next is this:
The ewe gets turned out with her lamb on a nice day, all fine and dandy, then a few days or a week later there's a night of bad weather, and in the morning the shepherd finds a lamb chewed up by a fox and gets on the phone to someone like you to come and shoot the fox that's killing his lambs.
What actually happened is this: Following unnecessary and unhygienic intervention, the ewe developed a mild uterine infection. Not enough to make her really sick, but enough to lower her maternal instinct and to reduce her milk yield. Not a problem while the weather's good, but the lamb is nonetheless compromised as a result and, faced with a night of bad weather with insufficient milk in his belly and an inattentive mother, he succumbs to hypothermia. By the time the fox picks him up he's either dying or already dead.
So, for the sake of saving a few pence on an obstetric glove the shepherd has lost a lamb and fox gets the blame.

In case you hadn't guessed, it absolutely boils my ****! And that's just one example among many. Small inattentions to detail that ultimately result in high mortality rates, with the finger of blame being pointed in the wrong direction.
I'm not saying that foxes never ever attack healthy uncompromised lambs, and as you say all situations are different, but I do emphatically stress that fox predation of healthy lambs is not the problem it's made out to be, and the vast majority of avoidable losses can be prevented by improvements to flock management.
And you're getting that message not only from me, but from another experienced shepherd on here, and I wouldn't mind betting that the vets on here will back me up too.

 

[BenBhoy]

A large number are being "assisted" unnecessarily.

My absolute #1 bugbear in the world of sheep. Dare I say, majority (yes majority) of lambing issue (and I mean the weeks post lambing too) are all caused by the shepherd. Dunno if it's lack of patience or no faith in the ewe, but why so many people feel the need to do it is beyond me. Its almost an assumption. Drives me up the wall.

 

[Smellydog]

That is fair comment.

I'll give you an example of the sort of thing I'm referring to when I say "poor shepherding":

I follow lots of farming accounts on Instagram. Several hundred, at least. At this time of year they're full of photos and videos of people delivering lambs, usually with a comment such as " lucky I was on hand to save that one" etc etc.
Well I have two issues with that: Firstly, around 94% of ewes don't need any assistance to give birth. A large number are being "assisted" unnecessarily. Secondly, in the vast majority of cases, probably in excess of 90%, the shepherd in the video is not bothering to wear an obstetric glove.
So, what happens next is this:
The ewe gets turned out with her lamb on a nice day, all fine and dandy, then a few days or a week later there's a night of bad weather, and in the morning the shepherd finds a lamb chewed up by a fox and gets on the phone to someone like you to come and shoot the fox that's killing his lambs.
What actually happened is this: Following unnecessary and unhygienic intervention, the ewe developed a mild uterine infection. Not enough to make her really sick, but enough to lower her maternal instinct and to reduce her milk yield. Not a problem while the weather's good, but the lamb is nonetheless compromised as a result and, faced with a night of bad weather with insufficient milk in his belly and an inattentive mother, he succumbs to hypothermia. By the time the fox picks him up he's either dying or already dead.
So, for the sake of saving a few pence on an obstetric glove the shepherd has lost a lamb and fox gets the blame.

In case you hadn't guessed, it absolutely boils my ****! And that's just one example among many.
I'm not saying that foxes never ever attack healthy uncompromised lambs, and as you say all situations are different, but I do emphatically stress that fox predation of healthy lambs is not the problem it's made out to be, and the vast majority of avoidable losses can be prevented by improvements to flock management.
And you're getting that message not only from me, but from another experienced shepherd on here, and I wouldn't mind betting that the vets on here will back me up too.

That is a more concise and accurate explanation that sounds perfect to me. Agree 100%.

I have no control over flock management and I have no interest in whether Charlie should be blamed or not. The facts are that there are other benefits to fox control as you mention.

Don't get boiling your **** Tim. I consider you a friend of mine but you'll not change human nature. Folk say and do dumb things. Lord knows I'm an expert at it!

Have a good day ol' lad

 

[old keeper]

I wou

That is fair comment.

I'll give you an example of the sort of thing I'm referring to when I say "poor shepherding":

I follow lots of farming accounts on Instagram. Several hundred, at least. At this time of year they're full of photos and videos of people delivering lambs, usually with a comment such as " lucky I was on hand to save that one" etc etc.
Well I have two issues with that: Firstly, around 94% of ewes don't need any assistance to give birth. A large number are being "assisted" unnecessarily. Secondly, in the vast majority of cases, probably in excess of 90%, the shepherd in the video is not bothering to wear an obstetric glove.
So, what happens next is this:
The ewe gets turned out with her lamb on a nice day, all fine and dandy, then a few days or a week later there's a night of bad weather, and in the morning the shepherd finds a lamb chewed up by a fox and gets on the phone to someone like you to come and shoot the fox that's killing his lambs.
What actually happened is this: Following unnecessary and unhygienic intervention, the ewe developed a mild uterine infection. Not enough to make her really sick, but enough to lower her maternal instinct and to reduce her milk yield. Not a problem while the weather's good, but the lamb is nonetheless compromised as a result and, faced with a night of bad weather with insufficient milk in his belly and an inattentive mother, he succumbs to hypothermia. By the time the fox picks him up he's either dying or already dead.
So, for the sake of saving a few pence on an obstetric glove the shepherd has lost a lamb and fox gets the blame.

In case you hadn't guessed, it absolutely boils my ****! And that's just one example among many.
I'm not saying that foxes never ever attack healthy uncompromised lambs, and as you say all situations are different, but I do emphatically stress that fox predation of healthy lambs is not the problem it's made out to be, and the vast majority of avoidable losses can be prevented by improvements to flock management.
And you're getting that message not only from me, but from another experienced shepherd on here, and I wouldn't mind betting that the vets on here will back me up too.

I would agree with what Tim says, that overall, lamb losses to foxes are exaggerated. However, on a local level, they can be significant. Last year, an extremely efficient sheep farmer locally was losing newborn lambs nightly; in fact, he actually caught the fox in the act one early morning. That night, I shot the fox as it made a beeline for a lamb, and from then on, no more were taken. So on occasions, to individual farmers, foxes predating on lambs can be a very real problem.
I've been running a fox control set-up for over sixty years and, to a degree, know what I'm talking about. Most foxes are drawn to lambing fields by easy pickings on the leftovers from the birthing process, afterbirth, colostrum-rich droppings and later on shed tails, etc. The vast majority of foxes are pretty timid around the ewes, but from time to time, there's a fox that realises it has the power and ability to take young lambs. These are usually quite bold individuals and can be a real problem.
When lambing takes place in the open, far more lambs die of natural causes than are killed by foxes. But it happens, and when it does has to be dealt with.

 

[landkeeper]

That is fair comment.

I'll give you an example of the sort of thing I'm referring to when I say "poor shepherding":

I follow lots of farming accounts on Instagram. Several hundred, at least. At this time of year they're full of photos and videos of people delivering lambs, usually with a comment such as " lucky I was on hand to save that one" etc etc.
Well I have two issues with that: Firstly, around 94% of ewes don't need any assistance to give birth. A large number are being "assisted" unnecessarily. Secondly, in the vast majority of cases, probably in excess of 90%, the shepherd in the video is not bothering to wear an obstetric glove.
So, what happens next is this:
The ewe gets turned out with her lamb on a nice day, all fine and dandy, then a few days or a week later there's a night of bad weather, and in the morning the shepherd finds a lamb chewed up by a fox and gets on the phone to someone like you to come and shoot the fox that's killing his lambs.
What actually happened is this: Following unnecessary and unhygienic intervention, the ewe developed a mild uterine infection. Not enough to make her really sick, but enough to lower her maternal instinct and to reduce her milk yield. Not a problem while the weather's good, but the lamb is nonetheless compromised as a result and, faced with a night of bad weather with insufficient milk in his belly and an inattentive mother, he succumbs to hypothermia. By the time the fox picks him up he's either dying or already dead.
So, for the sake of saving a few pence on an obstetric glove the shepherd has lost a lamb and fox gets the blame.

In case you hadn't guessed, it absolutely boils my ****! And that's just one example among many. Small inattentions to detail that ultimately result in high mortality rates, with the finger of blame being pointed in the wrong direction.
I'm not saying that foxes never ever attack healthy uncompromised lambs, and as you say all situations are different, but I do emphatically stress that fox predation of healthy lambs is not the problem it's made out to be, and the vast majority of avoidable losses can be prevented by improvements to flock management.
And you're getting that message not only from me, but from another experienced shepherd on here, and I wouldn't mind betting that the vets on here will back me up too.

And an experienced shepherd here Tim ,who will categorically state that yes foxes do can and will take healthy live lambs , not every fox I admit but one that's learned the trick can become an absolute menace
It's our annual waltz time xxxxx

 

[VSS]

And an experienced shepherd here Tim ,who will categorically state that yes foxes do can and will take healthy live lambs , not every fox I admit but one that's learned the trick can become an absolute menace
It's our annual waltz time xxxxx

Wouldn't be the same without this annual spat, would it?

Just finished lambing the first flock here. Foxes in abundance, and badgers too.
No lambs lost to either. As usual.

I think the foxes pose a greater threat to my fallow fawns than to my lambs.

 

[BenBhoy]

Finished our first lot yesterday. Crikey mam I've had a few ciders tonight!! Got a mini outdoor flock start end of may (don't ask!!) haha

 

[landkeeper]

Finished our first lot yesterday. Crikey mam I've had a few ciders tonight!! Got a mini outdoor flock start end of may (don't ask!!) haha

Good luck lol we did that many years ago end of May through into June the weather was great lovely and warm lambing out was easy till the flies started , 3 day old lambs with flystrike wasn't nice

 

[VSS]

Finished our first lot yesterday. Crikey mam I've had a few ciders tonight!! Got a mini outdoor flock start end of may (don't ask!!) haha

I've got a mini flock to lamb outdoors in May too!
(Don't ask ).

(Incidentally, as an interesting aside to this thread (at least I think it's interesting. Others might not), I shepherded for a number of years on an offshore island where there were no foxes or badgers. Then, as now, I kept detailed records of the lambing. Annual mortality rates were no different there than they are here, where I have plenty of mammalian predators).

 

[BenBhoy]

I shepherded for a number of years on an offshore island where there were no foxes or badgers. Then, as now, I kept detailed records of the lambing. Annual mortality rates were no different there than they are here,

You're a bad man!!