Brad93
Well-Known Member
Lost 6 to Charlie
Lambs stinking of fox
- Thread starter Brittany boy
- Start date
Corvids definitely the worst predator on weak lambs, together with greater black backed gulls.
(Incidentally, that photo has already appeared on here. Taken by the OP, I believe).
Haven’t read all of the posts on here so someone may well have already said it, but I’d say a basic cornerstone of shepherding is to kill every single fox you can, by any means necessary. There will be more than enough safe havens for them out there that you needn’t worry about fox numbers. Keep the fields tidy of dead lambs, they will still keep coming in for the cleansings.
We have cut our flock from 600 to 350 as we’ve upped cattle numbers but still keep on top of the foxes and although you can never be sure I don’t think we’ve lost a lamb to a fox for the 3 years since getting thermal and nv. We shoot anout 60-80 a year on around 1500 acres.
We have cut our flock from 600 to 350 as we’ve upped cattle numbers but still keep on top of the foxes and although you can never be sure I don’t think we’ve lost a lamb to a fox for the 3 years since getting thermal and nv. We shoot anout 60-80 a year on around 1500 acres.
The thing that causes me the most incredulity every spring is the way in which so many shepherds seem to be able to causally dismiss the accumulating losses from other causes, yet get absolutely apoplectic when one lamb is taken by a fox!
What about the 6 lambs that died of watery mouth?
And the 4 that died of scours?
And the 8 that were stillborn?
And the 3 that suffocated at birth?
And the 5 that had joint ill?
And the 2 that the ewe laid on?
And the 1 that hung itself in a loop of baler twine?
But when the fox takes one (which, let's face it, was probably already suffering from one of the ailments mentioned above) it's like a major disaster has struck!
I've seen a farmer standing in his lambing shed, seemingly oblivious to the mounting pile of dead lambs (various causes) in the corner, in an absolute fury after finding one eaten by a fox, desperately scrolling through his phone to find the number of the guy with the lamp and the rifle.
If, instead, he were to improve the nutrition of the ewes he'd cut out the watery mouth losses through better colostrum quality.
And if he kept the lambing pens cleaner he'd cut out the losses from scours.
And if he vaccinated his flock against toxo he'd considerably reduce the number of stillborns.
And if he had better surveillance in the lambing shed he wouldn't get lambs suffocated at birth.
And if he was a bit more meticulous about dipping navels he wouldn't see cases of joint ill.
And if he were to invest in better maternal genetics he'd not get ewes laying on their lambs.
And if he were to keep the place a bit tidier he wouldn't lose lambs through misadventure.
But no, it's the fox that took one lamb that he's worrying about
To be fair, most of you on here a fox shooters, not sheep farmers, and you bear the brunt of the farmer's rant against foxes without seeing the bigger picture, so I fully understand why you think foxes are a major cause of loss. And besides, it's in your interests to humour the farmer, and maybe even perpetuate the myth a bit, as you gain permissions on the strength of it.
But honestly.....
What about the 6 lambs that died of watery mouth?
And the 4 that died of scours?
And the 8 that were stillborn?
And the 3 that suffocated at birth?
And the 5 that had joint ill?
And the 2 that the ewe laid on?
And the 1 that hung itself in a loop of baler twine?
But when the fox takes one (which, let's face it, was probably already suffering from one of the ailments mentioned above) it's like a major disaster has struck!
I've seen a farmer standing in his lambing shed, seemingly oblivious to the mounting pile of dead lambs (various causes) in the corner, in an absolute fury after finding one eaten by a fox, desperately scrolling through his phone to find the number of the guy with the lamp and the rifle.
If, instead, he were to improve the nutrition of the ewes he'd cut out the watery mouth losses through better colostrum quality.
And if he kept the lambing pens cleaner he'd cut out the losses from scours.
And if he vaccinated his flock against toxo he'd considerably reduce the number of stillborns.
And if he had better surveillance in the lambing shed he wouldn't get lambs suffocated at birth.
And if he was a bit more meticulous about dipping navels he wouldn't see cases of joint ill.
And if he were to invest in better maternal genetics he'd not get ewes laying on their lambs.
And if he were to keep the place a bit tidier he wouldn't lose lambs through misadventure.
But no, it's the fox that took one lamb that he's worrying about
To be fair, most of you on here a fox shooters, not sheep farmers, and you bear the brunt of the farmer's rant against foxes without seeing the bigger picture, so I fully understand why you think foxes are a major cause of loss. And besides, it's in your interests to humour the farmer, and maybe even perpetuate the myth a bit, as you gain permissions on the strength of it.
But honestly.....
landkeeper
Well-Known Member
Tim ! Revels bolero round 1 ,.
I realise that you have been around sheep and lambed ewes in a multitude of locations ,write articles for periodicals and so on and so forth
Why is it you almost downright refuse to accept from others that foxes do predate on healthy lambs , in your mind any lamb taken by a fox 'must' have some underlying issue that instigates the predation
In previous threads you've been given dozens of examples of such and you shrug them off and cite 'lack of colostrum or bad mothering etcetera.
There are hundreds of shepherds who are very very good at their job lambing in all scenarios who still have lambs killed by foxes there are on here many who can give you accurate instances of the same
Yes lambs die of malnutrition , ecoli , scours, joint Ill, internal malfunctions and hazards
All shepherds I know do their very utmost to minimise these but most if not all will have list lambs that otherwise would not have died to foxes , no not every year and not every fox but the fact remains foxes do take 100% healthy viable lambs
I realise that you have been around sheep and lambed ewes in a multitude of locations ,write articles for periodicals and so on and so forth
Why is it you almost downright refuse to accept from others that foxes do predate on healthy lambs , in your mind any lamb taken by a fox 'must' have some underlying issue that instigates the predation
In previous threads you've been given dozens of examples of such and you shrug them off and cite 'lack of colostrum or bad mothering etcetera.
There are hundreds of shepherds who are very very good at their job lambing in all scenarios who still have lambs killed by foxes there are on here many who can give you accurate instances of the same
Yes lambs die of malnutrition , ecoli , scours, joint Ill, internal malfunctions and hazards
All shepherds I know do their very utmost to minimise these but most if not all will have list lambs that otherwise would not have died to foxes , no not every year and not every fox but the fact remains foxes do take 100% healthy viable lambs
My two penneth
The one thing thermal has taught - some of us - is that once lambing begins not just 1 or 2 foxes turn up - but a dozen or more
I have seen several patrolling groups looking for opportunities
Our local farmer has losses year on year until we really got stuck into the foxes - now no issues
Coincidence ? If it walks like a duck - quacks like a duck - well you know
The one thing thermal has taught - some of us - is that once lambing begins not just 1 or 2 foxes turn up - but a dozen or more
I have seen several patrolling groups looking for opportunities
Our local farmer has losses year on year until we really got stuck into the foxes - now no issues
Coincidence ? If it walks like a duck - quacks like a duck - well you know
Bo Diddley
Well-Known Member
When the shepherd puts sheep within a field or two of my house in the winter, I usually have a field day baiting them and shooting from the attic window, no sheep = few foxes.
Herring gulls are the barstewards on the pig unit my brother works on, no fox problems as it's on an estate that runs a decent shoot, but the gulls are evil buggers.
I've watched dozens of times with the thermal foxes trying it on with deer, usually Muntjac, but last winter I watched one trying it on with a roe, they had a stand off & sparring contest for 10 minutes, it was a fantastic experience, they both went on their way...
On the poultry units I shoot on, badgers are worse than foxes. I've watched them rip apart turkeys like something out of a sci-fi movie.
Herring gulls are the barstewards on the pig unit my brother works on, no fox problems as it's on an estate that runs a decent shoot, but the gulls are evil buggers.
I've watched dozens of times with the thermal foxes trying it on with deer, usually Muntjac, but last winter I watched one trying it on with a roe, they had a stand off & sparring contest for 10 minutes, it was a fantastic experience, they both went on their way...
On the poultry units I shoot on, badgers are worse than foxes. I've watched them rip apart turkeys like something out of a sci-fi movie.
Simply because I have seen it so many times.
And I have seen so many situations where farmers have gone flat out killing all the foxes, and have reduced fox predation to more-or-less zero, as you would expect, but their overall lamb mortality remains unchanged year after year.
And because the farmers I know who've gone really flat out dealing with all the other potential problems are not generally the ones that are now worrying about foxes.
And because my own experience on my own farm (where I rarely shoot a fox - despite their being lots - unless one goes for my chickens) supports and confirms the conclusions I have drawn from my experience of working as a contract lamber under a wide range of different management systems. And I can put my theories to the test on my own farm. As I do.
And that's about it, really.
I don't refuse to accept that there are occasions when a fox will take a healthy live lamb that was not compromised in any way. However, I do believe that those occasions are so few and far between as to be insignificant, particularly when compared to the underlying reasons why a lamb became vulnerable to predation in the first place, most of which could have been avoided.
And if you've been working with sheep for a long time, as I believe you have, you will know that the industry's track record on lamb mortality is pretty shocking, and if we're ever going to turn that around there's a lot more important things than a few foxes to worry about.
And I do think foxes are used as a "scapegoat" excuse by poor shepherds.
Bo Diddley
Well-Known Member
Do you think that because sheep are lambing earlier than they would naturally do (someone told me it is a consequence of early lambs making better money years ago), they are now sometimes taken by foxes because of food shortages early in the year?
I've noticed over the years that as soon as the hares start dropping their young, the bait stations almost become a waste of time for me in Norfolk, we have plenty of hares on our patch, and I've watched the foxes quartering the fields searching for them loads of times... they are on it big time at the minute, a nice tasty snack.
I've noticed over the years that as soon as the hares start dropping their young, the bait stations almost become a waste of time for me in Norfolk, we have plenty of hares on our patch, and I've watched the foxes quartering the fields searching for them loads of times... they are on it big time at the minute, a nice tasty snack.
Early lambing isn't a new thing. It's been going on for centuries. In fact, what we're seeing now is actually a move away from early lambing to lower input systems.
blueeyes
Well-Known Member
I do a small bit of ground consisting of 8 large fields , there is forestry adjacent to this ground so always going to be an influx of mr fox , last year I did the usual hit them hard before lambing , which I did the lease owner had brought two guys in to do the sheep as he was busy doing other things lol , anyway lambing came but with it a spell of cold wet weather which took its toll , I got a friendly call from the gamekeeper saying they were blaming foxes which I went down a few early mornings and late nights to no avail , but dead lambs everywhere , one morn I noticed the crows flying out of the whins below me on inspection I counted 15 dead lambs all intact that had been flung under to hide them, needless to say there is another chap this year , I have done my part and him his and what a difference he has made etc
landkeeper
Well-Known Member
BenBhoy
Well-Known Member
I'd say more people are lambing later than ever , certainly we are and most I know. The market demands aren't the same anymore, NSL isn't worth the aggro of lambing early to catch a non existent market. Can save more £ in getting them outside earlier by lambing later on than paying to creep them inside for longer. Only job still consistently lambing early are the pedigree tup breeders.
Bo Diddley
Well-Known Member
Watch it!
You could get shot for eating them!
BenBhoy
Well-Known Member
Not yet my mate. We decided it wouldn't be fair on my old dog. I know some people say it gives an older dog new lease of life, but don't think that be case with her. She's gone really downhill in last week, just turned 15 but getting her to vet in TuesdayI think you were looking to get a dog to take around with you at one point, did you ever get one?
. Must admit I was tempted by some patt X JRT on her mind.
I should think I'm probably drawing on a larger sample size than you.Non of my shepherd's over react as you describe @VSS .
They just want the feckers gone, they don't get in a flap about it and they don't have a pile of dead in the shed.
You must know some right ws
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