Lead ban by Autumn 2023 - Cut and Pasted from Pigeon Watch

[Triggermortis]

Any viable suggestions on an alternative for .410 and 20g slugs used for humane dispatch ?
I’m not talking slugs used for sporting target disciplines, purely for humane and efficient dispatch of large animals.

 

[stevenedwards]

You say the rain water running off a nine year old house goes in to "sewers" and you are billed accordingly. What kind of "sewer" ? the term sewer is frequently mis used. I would expect the water to go into a surface water drain rather than be a combined discharge into a foul sewer. Until the SUDS, sustainable urban drainage system, protocol came into force requiring surface water to be contained on development land where ever technically possible separate surface water drains were the norm for the previous 40 or so years.
On site means soak aways for the "private" water falling on roofs and drives and attenuation of discharge often by ponds to approved outfalls to water courses.
Tedious I know but some one has to be able to jump through the hoops to construct new buildings.

 

[StephenToast]

So what? The risk is what it is. Negligible. It is futile and irrelevant to pretend that the risk of eating lead shot game would be greater if it was consumed more frequently.

So. The graph proves absolutely nothing! It's totally misleading and is being used as if it qualifies an argument to keep lead ammunition. It doesn't qualify anything.

 

[stubear]

And does it state what proportion of their diet game meat contributed vs potatoes, wheat, and tap water? All of which are extremely common in the diets of all of those countries vs game meat which is likely not.

You’ve also conveniently skipped over the fact that, if game is such a small part of peoples diets on average, then why are we worrying about game shot with lead as opposed to the significantly larger exposure to lead via potatoes and grains which makes up far more of peoples diets?

 

[Woodenbeam]

As already said in this thread, this has bugger all to do with lead contamination - it’s just an easy target for anti shooting agenda’s. The sad thing is it is in danger of dividing the shooting community which is playing straight into their hands. Life is a risk & you take you own outlook on life but strewth, if a bit of lead in ya pigeon pie is all you’ve to worry about then I envy you.

 

[AGR]

Again I say, highly processed foods are a much higher risk to human health than lead poisoning from shot game. The lead ban is pretty much irrelevant to human health.

 

[25 Sharps]

i was in the building trade, very little water from run off goes into, or should go into the sewers and on to water treatment plants.
im sure some does but id think the amount is miniscule.
how quickly does it thin? ive seen very old rooves that appear fine.
soft water pipes could be an issue but if the pipes are dissolving wouldnt we be see leaks and replacement of them by now?
just because our grand parents did it doesnt mean we should.
ingesting lead in fragments of meat whether your worried or not is clearly not good for you.
at some stage we will have to embrace all non lead ammo.
may be a work around will be allowed for certain types of firearm but i doubt it

Some of it does as there are still plenty of combined systems. Either way the foul water goes to sewage treatment plants which discharge into rivers and surface water generally goes into rivers.

Some of that water is then abstracted and cleaned for drinking water. There will be lead in some drinking water as a result.

 

[StephenToast]

You’ve also conveniently skipped over the fact that, if game is such a small part of peoples diets on average, then why are we worrying about game shot with lead as opposed to the significantly larger exposure to lead via potatoes and grains which makes up far more of peoples diets?

You've conveniently skipped over the fact that it may be a small part of people's diet, but in equal amounts by weight, game meat may contribute a huge percentage of lead by comparison to an equal amount of say potato, ot tap water into the human food chain, and if that is so (and your graph doesn't prove this or anything else) then not using lead ammunition is an easy way of removing it.

 

[25 Sharps]

As already said in this thread, this has bugger all to do with lead contamination - it’s just an easy target for anti shooting agenda’s. The sad thing is it is in danger of dividing the shooting community which is playing straight into their hands. Life is a risk & you take you own outlook on life but strewth, if a bit of lead in ya pigeon pie is all you’ve to worry about then I envy you.

I think that’s a response worthy of the tinfoil hat brigade.

Lead is bad for the environment and bad for you if you eat it, the only thing up for debate is the level of risk it poses.

The HSE can see an easy way of removing that risk for shooters, consumers of game and the environment and they are therefore trying to enforce it. That is what they do, there is no anti shooting agenda.

What they don’t understand is the intricacies of shooting, ballistics, twist rates and ammunition supply in the UK. So what on paper seems straight forward is in fact quite complicated and a royal PITA.

I was an absolute sceptic on copper for deer but have used barnes and yew tree in various calibres on various species for the last 2 seasons and it’s worked well. I am still dubious on lead free for vermin based on expansion and poor ballistics plus lack of viable alternative for .22 and air rifles. I see absolutely no need to change for target.

Steel shot I genuinely don’t find kills as well apart from one loading I’ve never found again.

The division between shooters is self inflicted as most people are happy to only support their ranch of shooting and as long as that’s alright they don’t worry about anyone else. That’s nothing to do with lead that’s just the way the majority are, this is very, very clear on this forum!

 

[25 Sharps]

i only worked on victorian houses that drained rain water into the sewer, any new house or extension used a soak away.
what is excessive environmental damage?

Soak aways only work on some soil types, any clay and certain sands you can forget it.

I still work in the building trade and I would say 80% of the schemes we work on in my area (south west) discharge to the river network either directly or via the surface water system.

My own experience Edwardian house discharges to a combined sewer as do many houses of that age and older.

 

[timbrayford]

You've conveniently skipped over the fact that it may be a small part of people's diet, but in equal amounts by weight, game meat may contribute a huge percentage of lead by comparison to an equal amount of say potato, ot tap water into the human food chain, and if that is so (and your graph doesn't prove this or anything else) then not using lead ammunition is an easy way of removing it.

Which in a free world is a matter for personal choice and good product labelling, much in the manner as food that may contain nut residues are?

 

[Liveonce]

Have said it before, if the government was really concerned about people’s health it has to look no further than smoking as a starter. Fauna and Flora is also a reason the antis are using and the fact their is no safe limit of lead in a human body, so makes if difficult to argue otherwise that lead is anything but bad for you.

 

[gixer1]

So. The graph proves absolutely nothing! It's totally misleading and is being used as if it qualifies an argument to keep lead ammunition. It doesn't qualify anything.

And the data against lead is the same - if you think shooting and game consumption is a major concern over other lead applications you are frankly naive and missing the point that this is low hanging fruit for political gain and a way to remove “dangerous guns” and score another point.

As mentioned there are far more threatening things to public health but let’s see any politician brave enough to stop McDonalds or processed foods.

 

[finnbear270]

Anyone remember the hoo haa over aluminium, (not aloominum) utensils & cooking vessels in schools .......... could be why we have an accelerated Alzheimers situation.?

 

[25 Sharps]

Exactly the same can be said for copper, which is also toxic... So that argument is irrelevant immediately.
How many people in the UK have died due to lead consumption? Out of those people, how many has eaten lead shot game?

Or, how many people die from exhaust fumes? Or fumes from spray booths? How many people die from RTC's yearly? My point is, they're putting a ban in place which frankly, is completely pointless. Will it save anyone? No. There is still more lead in the majority of foods than there is in lead shot game. So why aren't they being banned? It's another nail to the proverbial coffin.

There still isn't a suitable alternative in air rifles, rim fires and the only way to get your small CF to work is to get it rebarreled. And before I get the inevitable 'use these, they work at 100 yards on a day with 1mph wind' which again, are pretty useless when it comes to anything of a reasonable range, there IS NOT a suitable lead free bullet yet for the above. So that means the rabbit population is going to soar along with every other small game species because they won't be getting shot... And obviously the target shooters that like plinking steel at silly ranges on farm land they're allowed to. It's going to cost us a bloody fortune which I know I can't afford.

I zero'd my 7mm last week. 4 rounds. Well over £5 for those rounds.
The maths says £11.80 for 4 rounds... Mostly due to the massive cost of the bullet alone... They won't be used for plinking... Another down side to lead free, the cost... I actually practice with my rifles. I won't be doing that any longer!

So, lead free will really cock up a lot of shooting for most when there isn't any actual need for it.

I don’t think the bullet cost contributes that much. Even at a 50p mark up for copper over lead £2.45 is going to involve a lot of profit over the components, profit for the manufacturer, wholesaler, vendor. And profit based purely on the fact people will buy the product at an inflated rate.

 

[25 Sharps]

Any viable suggestions on an alternative for .410 and 20g slugs used for humane dispatch ?
I’m not talking slugs used for sporting target disciplines, purely for humane and efficient dispatch of large animals.

.22lr?

 

[slider]

Exactly the same can be said for copper, which is also toxic... So that argument is irrelevant immediately.

The volumes required and the affects of the toxicity are completely different

 

[stubear]

You've conveniently skipped over the fact that it may be a small part of people's diet, but in equal amounts by weight, game meat may contribute a huge percentage of lead by comparison to an equal amount of say potato, ot tap water into the human food chain, and if that is so (and your graph doesn't prove this or anything else) then not using lead ammunition is an easy way of removing it.

But now you’ve said “MAY contribute” not “does”.

And that’s the crux of the issue here - you don’t enact sweeping legislation where it might not be needed. You need proof and so far as I have seen there isn’t anything solid.

The research I’ve shared doesn’t prove there is no lead in game, but it does prove that to the average person lead in game is of significantly less issue than a host of other food types.

So again I ask - why is lead in game at the top of the agenda when lead in your calamari is a bigger issue? Not to mention grains, potatoes etc.

The other question that has been rolling around in my mind is why is there not a discussion going on about tobacco? There are clear proven health risks from tobacco consumption yet I can walk into my local supermarket and walk out with a packet of cigarettes no questions asked.

Ditto alcohol.

But then the government makes millions in tax from smokers and drinkers, and smoking and drinking doesn’t involve the little people/rich toffs (delete as appropriate based on your political leanings) having access to all those nasty dangerous firearms either.

 

[Muirmains]

If you were in the building trade which you obviously aren't you would realise that lead on the roof of a building gets thinner over the years as the water washes it away and where does it end up in rain water drains which ends up in our drinking water. And in you and me.
Do you know that there is more lead in an acre of land containing potatoes, why potatoes I don't know, that the shooting industries drops in 10 years.
Only areas which hard water produce lime, areas with soft water don't, what coats their lead pipes.

Lead doesn’t dissolve in rain water , hence the lead water pipes. I have never seen lead flashings dissolve. You must work in a part of the uk I don’t know.

 

[sikadog]

Ok I believe you, I haven't been in the trade for nearly 60 years. I didn't say water dissolves it, I said it washes it away.
As it does with rock.
I take it you have never been on a roof where the lead flashing is that thin you can push you finger through it.