Leccy cars.

[tim@tcs]

They're pushing them because now they have to sell quotas of EVs, whether anyone wants them or not. Either 22% of cars sold are EVs or they have a £15k fine per car under that level. There are some details, but that's the essence.

Of course they're offering you a free charger. Towards the end of the year, they'll be offering you a £500 and a blow job just to test drive one.

The free charger is I believe from the motability scheme but still didn’t interest me. I’m not even keen on a hybrid self charger as it’s going to cause issues down the road with recycling even though it won’t be my problem as I just get a new car every three years and pay out nothing from my taxable income

 

[Rasputin]

I am genuinely interested to know.
You seem to be doing a lots of miles per year!
Have you bought an EV for private use. as opposed to leasing and/or using for business use, and if so, how much have you spent in maintaining ownership of an EV over say 7 years?
Depreciation seems to possibly outweigh lower tax and fuel costs!

Wouldn’t say loads but 60 miles a day during the week then been doing weekend stuff. The Etron is predominantly the missus car on personal lease I still have my hilux for now which goes through the business but as soon as the electric trucks come about I will definitely have one assuming it’s got a 200 mile+ range suspect the business breaks on them will be massively beneficial.

Only had it a month so can’t answer most of the above but I personally lease all my cars unless there something small and crap like the duster I’m looking for but bought my old taoureg out of the lease at the end. Reason I lease is exactly because of depreciation and get the servicing included.

Broader conversation is do you want to drop £80k on a car and lose money or lease it for £15k and put the balance to work? I chose the latter.

 

[JTO]

Wouldn’t say loads but 60 miles a day during the week then been doing weekend stuff. The Etron is predominantly the missus car on personal lease I still have my hilux for now which goes through the business but as soon as the electric trucks come about I will definitely have one assuming it’s got a 200 mile+ range suspect the business breaks on them will be massively beneficial.

Only had it a month so can’t answer most of the above but I personally lease all my cars unless there something small and crap like the duster I’m looking for but bought my old taoureg out of the lease at the end. Reason I lease is exactly because of depreciation and get the servicing included.

Broader conversation is do you want to drop £80k on a car and lose money or lease it for £15k and put the balance to work? I chose the latter.

Having read that, just can't see how you will be saving £4,000 a year on fuel. I must have missed something!

 

[fixedwheel]

Wouldn’t say loads but 60 miles a day during the week then been doing weekend stuff. The Etron is predominantly the missus car on personal lease I still have my hilux for now which goes through the business but as soon as the electric trucks come about I will definitely have one assuming it’s got a 200 mile+ range suspect the business breaks on them will be massively beneficial.

Only had it a month so can’t answer most of the above but I personally lease all my cars unless there something small and crap like the duster I’m looking for but bought my old taoureg out of the lease at the end. Reason I lease is exactly because of depreciation and get the servicing included.

Broader conversation is do you want to drop £80k on a car and lose money or lease it for £15k and put the balance to work? I chose the latter.

Having read that, just can't see how you will be saving £4,000 a year on fuel. I must have missed something!

I'm going to be fascinated to see the figures for this, as I cannot see how the running costs of a decent sized electric can make up for the horrific depreciation. After all, a lease company is just going to factor that into the figures.

Harry Metcalfe points out that the losses in charging is about 10%, see 19"03' into the video



So, at a public charger, would you pay for 80kWh that the battery has increased by? Or the 88kWh it takes to charge it by 80kWh?

 

[spanj]

How do EV cars handle with traction in winter?
Last big snow we had last year a polis man was out shifting a crashed motor and saying how glad he had a normal polis car with him that day as the EV just sit and spin in snow, to much torque.
Heard the same from an FC Forester who wouldn't follow my van down a forest track, to be fair the track was a wee bit steep and mossy, but said the same wheels just spin.
I will add not just an EV problem, I had 2 combi vans in past 1 was absolutely brilliant ( 1.7 diesel) in snow yet the newer 1.3 was absolutely murder just spun out on anything.

Also I seen hertz in America are selling off 2000 EV motors as no demand for them

I also seen a clip from oz version of top gear were they drove 2 7 series bmws from Melbourne to sydney, took an extra 3 hours ( whi h isnae bad considering distance) and it cost more too

Miles better than bmws or mercs

 

[Smellydog]

Yep so it's like if I filled my petrol car at a pump that drips a gallon on the floor I still pay for it.
Because that's progress!
So the coal fired leccy station has to use a bucket more coal to charge an EV times that by a few million! Oh yeah baby, now we are saving the planet

 

[fixedwheel]

Miles better than bmws or mercs

No problems driving any car in snow, just that most people don't think about what tyres they have on their car.

I've run RWD cars for 28 years, the difference that a set of suitable tyres make in winter is silly, but most people run summers and then wonder why their XYZ can't get anywhere.

 

[Rasputin]

Having read that, just can't see how you will be saving £4,000 a year on fuel. I must have missed something!

Il put some pictures up and of the month when it’s had a full month then can give you a more concrete answer but we were doing a lot of filling up. Bear in mind we were using a hilux for the last 15k miles and an evoque. Obviously if you come from something a touch more frugal than it’s reduced. But frankly that’s comparing apples and oranges when it comes to vehicles.

 

[Rasputin]

I'm going to be fascinated to see the figures for this, as I cannot see how the running costs of a decent sized electric can make up for the horrific depreciation. After all, a lease company is just going to factor that into the figures.

Harry Metcalfe points out that the losses in charging is about 10%, see 19"03' into the video



So, at a public charger, would you pay for 80kWh that the battery has increased by? Or the 88kWh it takes to charge it by 80kWh?

As said depreciation not an issue I lease it and would never buy an 80k car precisely because of this. Pretty much everything drops 20% the moment you drive it off the forecourt. Suspect a high amount of the depreciation is front loaded because of the number of companies who buy them then bleed them off the books. I looked at a Porsche taycan and the depreciation was high but flip side is you get a hell of a lot of car for your money.

Don’t know why everyone is fixated on public charging, maybe it’s a mentality thing from years of going to a pump. I’d be very surprised if we ever use one more than a handful of times a year. But in the interested of fairness I shall take one for the SD masses and go charge it at my local Tesco and report back.

One thing which I will add that might appeal to stalkers is that it’s bloody quiet for creeping around your ground on especially vs the rumble of a truck.

 

[fixedwheel]

As said depreciation not an issue I lease it and would never buy an 80k car precisely because of this.

How can depreciation not be an issue? The lease company are just going to pass the depreciation on to the customer via higher deposit & monthly payments. They aren't charities.

 

[slider]

How do EV cars handle with traction in winter?
Last big snow we had last year a polis man was out shifting a crashed motor and saying how glad he had a normal polis car with him that day as the EV just sit and spin in snow, to much torque.
Heard the same from an FC Forester who wouldn't follow my van down a forest track, to be fair the track was a wee bit steep and mossy, but said the same wheels just spin.
I will add not just an EV problem, I had 2 combi vans in past 1 was absolutely brilliant ( 1.7 diesel) in snow yet the newer 1.3 was absolutely murder just spun out on anything.

Also I seen hertz in America are selling off 2000 EV motors as no demand for them

I also seen a clip from oz version of top gear were they drove 2 7 series bmws from Melbourne to sydney, took an extra 3 hours ( whi h isnae bad considering distance) and it cost more too

Apart from the torque issue EV are fitted with low rolling resistance tyres, which are generally pretty useless in all but dry tarmac.

As a slight aside FLS have been pushed by Scot Govt policies to gradually change over Thier fleet of vans and pool cars to EV's.
This has led to a bit of an issue with many refusing to use them for fear of getting marooned in remote locations with no leccy for heating.

 

[Rasputin]

How can depreciation not be an issue? The lease company are just going to pass the depreciation on to the customer via higher deposit & monthly payments. They aren't charities.

It’s a bit of a red herring because everything depreciates no doubt when they calculate the premiums they have to balance the cost between price and demand and make their margins to suit. If petrol/diesel had carried on its stratospheric price rise it was £2 a litre at one point then depreciation would be lower as people had more demand for them it just happens it’s dropped back down again to 1.45 so demands dropped.

At the end of the day it boils down to personal cash flow and tax position as I said in an earlier post. I don’t think they are they for everyone, of course not but if it suits your lifestyle and financially makes sense then there a no brainer. If you want to buy an expensive ice car for a similar price and spec then look at the running costs and depreciation they work out cheaper for me.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

So the Tesla model Y SUV is the best selling car in Europe in 2023 including the Brexit area. I do despair. If the Daily Fail is to be believed.

 

[Foxyboy43]

Tesla Exaggerated Its Cars’ Driving Range—And Canceled Service Appointments If Drivers Complained, Report Says

An investigation released Thursday says Tesla exaggerated the range of its vehicles and worked to suppress driver’s worries about their car’s battery life.

www.forbes.com

Elon Musk's Big Lie About Tesla Is Finally Exposed

More than 2 million of the cars are being recalled — because Tesla’s “self-driving” systems have always been anything but

www.rollingstone.com

Just google “Tesla lied…..” and take your pick, you might be there quite a while….
Soooo actions such as these put me in mind of a certain well-known american aka Tricky-Dicky who fell from grace when his lies were finally revealed and attracted, rightly, the question “would you buy a used car from this man?”.
Watch this space…

 

[fixedwheel]

It’s a bit of a red herring because everything depreciates no doubt when they calculate the premiums they have to balance the cost between price and demand and make their margins to suit. If petrol/diesel had carried on its stratospheric price rise it was £2 a litre at one point then depreciation would be lower as people had more demand for them it just happens it’s dropped back down again to 1.45 so demands dropped.

It's also a red herring to compare an 80k ICE to an 80k Electric. (As you said in post 124)

For example, new BMW 5 series saloon, available in ICE, hybrid and full electric.
i5 eDrive40 from £74,105, min weight 2,205kgs, max tow 1,500kg
530e Hybrid from £59,455, min weight 2,080kgs, max tow 1,800kg
520i Petrol from £51,000, min weight 1,800kgs, max tow 2,000kg

Don't think they are going to be vastly different places to sit for all those miles of driving.

The 520i does 45.6-48.7mpg, depending on options, (44.5mpg would be 10 miles per litre, so easy for the maths) so on the lower of those would be £0.14 per mile, at £1.39 per litre.

The £23,105 difference to an i5 would pay for 165,000 miles worth of fuel. Even throwing £7,000 into servicing costs would still mean it would be over 100,000 miles before it got to the same cost of an i5 that was being charged for free. Which, of course, it wouldn't be.

So how long would it actually take to break even? You've obviously done your figures to work out that electric is correct choice for you. Can you share any obvious bits that would skew those in favour of electric?

 

[graphictart]

 

[Rasputin]

It's also a red herring to compare an 80k ICE to an 80k Electric. (As you said in post 124)

For example, new BMW 5 series saloon, available in ICE, hybrid and full electric.
i5 eDrive40 from £74,105, min weight 2,205kgs, max tow 1,500kg
530e Hybrid from £59,455, min weight 2,080kgs, max tow 1,800kg
520i Petrol from £51,000, min weight 1,800kgs, max tow 2,000kg

Don't think they are going to be vastly different places to sit for all those miles of driving.

The 520i does 45.6-48.7mpg, depending on options, (44.5mpg would be 10 miles per litre, so easy for the maths) so on the lower of those would be £0.14 per mile, at £1.39 per litre.

The £23,105 difference to an i5 would pay for 165,000 miles worth of fuel. Even throwing £7,000 into servicing costs would still mean it would be over 100,000 miles before it got to the same cost of an i5 that was being charged for free. Which, of course, it wouldn't be.

So how long would it actually take to break even? You've obviously done your figures to work out that electric is correct choice for you. Can you share any obvious bits that would skew those in favour of electric?

Can’t speak for the bmw as I don’t own one but I just had a look at comparable spec wise ie 400 bhp, bells and whistles etc Audi q8 etron(which I have) then hybrid and diesel

Specs obviously different but as close as I can find on autotrader price wises there’s maybe £5k spread depending on what you have but the diesel equivalent averages just 34 mpg (claimed) and couldn’t find a hybrid.

Additionally theres the hefty road tax.

I have zero interest in towing and for the life of me can’t think why an EV would ever want to tow anything over a ton but hey ho if that’s an important deal breaker for people so be it.

The diesel bmw vs electric is like comparing a g shock to an Apple Watch do the same basic thing but the Apple watch does a lot more.

 

[JTO]

cheaper to run than ice it’s cutting literally 1/3 the price of what we used to spend on diesel every month which will save us about £4K a year

So is £4K a third of what you were spending on diesel, or two thirds?

 

[grimstone]

Where EVs definitely don’t make any sense is for HGVs. These run 24/7 and typically doing 8mpg.

There are some Electric Trucks, but the cost £1/2m, 20 times the charging capacity of a car and you loose about 4 tonnes of payload.

We have calculated it will need another 200 Nuclear Power Stations across Europe if we want to put the HGV fleet on pure electric, or hydrogen power.

One of my clients has developed an energy recovery system that is retrofittable to existing trucks, reduces fuel by 25%, increases traction and pays for itself in 12 to 18 months and only weighs 200kg.

In use, it is like have an electric boost on your bike. We are using ultra capacitors for the energy storage. In trials in France, South Africa and Australia with major HGV players.

Electric truck is a no go other than for sites like Trafford park for pallet networks, even then I doubt anywhere would have the capacity to charge a small fleet of 4x2's for this purpose.

As for the energy recovery SAF and I think BPW have an axle system like you describe, but due to our archaic weight systems hauliers will struggle with the extra weight. They already get penalised for making kit fit for purpose and safer like gearbox retarders, 3 spring brake axles/rear steer/maxi tyres on trailers, full front and rear air suspension to make more road friendly. Most see the added weight and cringe, especially when companies are demanding 29t payload from a haulier.

 

[Apthorpe]

It becomes increasingly difficult to compare real costs of EVs and ICE cars, the more government intrudes into the market. As of this year, there is a legal requirement that 22% of cars sold by most manufacturers have to be electric or they pay £15k fine for each car they fall short. There are two ways to deal with that regulation, given that most car companies have an uphill task on their hand. Either they inflate the cost of ICE cars, with two effects - to reduce sales of them and to compensate for the fines they'll have to pay on the shortfall. This obviously causes long term brand damage. Alternatively, they can slash the prices of EVs below the cost of manufacture in order to incentivise people to buy them. This obviously damages the economics of EVs. The third approach, I suppose, would be for them to buy EVs from an EV manufacturer, probably Chinese, and rebadge then sell them on at an artificially low price or with incentives. This has risks.
Either way, regulation has made it increasingly difficult to work out what the real world price of either is.

This is even before the effects of differing tax rates on the buyer are taken into account.

EV drivers are likely to be paying less for their motoring, but then everybody else is actually paying for their smugness, so rather than proselytising, they really ought to be thanking everyone else for tolerating that state of affairs. Although everyone in cities ought to be thanking EV drivers for the cleaner air too (if only it was actually getting much cleaner).