D
Douglas
Guest
MarkH said:
Letzter Bissen-Last Bite
- Thread starter Beowulf
- Start date
D
Douglas
Guest
Beowulf said:
I'd like to read your explanation of those claims.
Social and Economic History and its effects upon the British Countryside is a particular interest of mine.
sikamalc
Administrator
I agree with what you are saying Douglas, in that to respect the animal the shot is in the right place, and it goes down in one, that is without doubt what all stalkers and hunters aspire to when hunting. Although as I have said before if you have done enough of it, there will be the occassion when this goes wrong. No matter how good you are. I am also aware that as a job, culling deer in large numbers is a thankless task, and someone has to do it, especially in hard terrain such as the highlands.
We all have our own way of paying respect to the animal we have shot. Mine just happens to be slightly different to yours. I am fortunate in that I have hunted with a number of different hunters in various parts of the world, and they all have their own way of celebrating their fortune, when they harvest an animal, and to me it has meant I have shared many great moments that I would not exchange for anything. That is after all what this thread is about, although I admit it has gone slightly off thread, which is my fault.
I wish you well, and my moaning was not aimed directly at yourself, but rather at the organisations that manage these killing spree's. I am sure you like all of us have the deers welfare at heart. But I still know and feel that in many cases deer are not treated by the larger organisations and some landowners as the graceful and majestic animal that they are.
Venison as you so rightly say is a prime source of protein and professional handling is of paramount importance. Its a pity the price off the hill or from the forest does not reflect that. Changing the British palate to except venison is difficult, Ahhh thats another subject.
Keep well, and I hope the season is going well for you?
We all have our own way of paying respect to the animal we have shot. Mine just happens to be slightly different to yours. I am fortunate in that I have hunted with a number of different hunters in various parts of the world, and they all have their own way of celebrating their fortune, when they harvest an animal, and to me it has meant I have shared many great moments that I would not exchange for anything. That is after all what this thread is about, although I admit it has gone slightly off thread, which is my fault.
I wish you well, and my moaning was not aimed directly at yourself, but rather at the organisations that manage these killing spree's. I am sure you like all of us have the deers welfare at heart. But I still know and feel that in many cases deer are not treated by the larger organisations and some landowners as the graceful and majestic animal that they are.
Venison as you so rightly say is a prime source of protein and professional handling is of paramount importance. Its a pity the price off the hill or from the forest does not reflect that. Changing the British palate to except venison is difficult, Ahhh thats another subject.
Keep well, and I hope the season is going well for you?
MarkH
Well-Known Member
Hi Douglas
For me forestry and deer hunting are a passion so my style is probably a little more shall we say 'romantic' its the German blood in me.
You are absolutly rightthough about quick clean kills being the No 1. mark of respect.
I also reload to make sure the bullets and rifle are up to the job as a lot of my culling has to take place at relatively long range (200m).
In reply to Beowulf I am planting my own piece of forestry (300 acres) but refuse to take ant Forestry grants etc. This way I can plant what I like and where it will grow best. At present Scots Pine, Birch and Ash. I personally had plant these trees at high volume without protection except my trusty rifle. Once grants and experts are involved it gets expensive and inflexable.
Mark
For me forestry and deer hunting are a passion so my style is probably a little more shall we say 'romantic' its the German blood in me.
You are absolutly rightthough about quick clean kills being the No 1. mark of respect.
I also reload to make sure the bullets and rifle are up to the job as a lot of my culling has to take place at relatively long range (200m).
In reply to Beowulf I am planting my own piece of forestry (300 acres) but refuse to take ant Forestry grants etc. This way I can plant what I like and where it will grow best. At present Scots Pine, Birch and Ash. I personally had plant these trees at high volume without protection except my trusty rifle. Once grants and experts are involved it gets expensive and inflexable.
Mark
Douglas,
In answer to your question. My information came from the following books:- Woodland Conservation and Management (Second edition) by George Peterken,
The History of the British Countryside, by Oliver Rackham,
Working with Nature, by Ronnie Rose.
These are some of the many worthy books in my extensive collection.
Environmental Conservation is my life and I am fortunate to have seen Nature in all its wonderment from the Gentoo Penguin colonies in the Falkland Islands, to the Polar Bears in the most Northern parts of Arctic Norway.
I like MarkH have a romantic view of deer and their place in European history, language, religion and folk lore.
I also subscribe to the 'Five Basic Freedoms’ in deer management,
which states:- All wild deer (ferae naturae-res nullius) should be guaranteed:
I. Freedom from malnutrition,
II. Freedom from discomfort and pain,
III. Freedom from injury and disease,
IV. Freedom to behave normally,
(to carry out their lives as nature intended),
V. Freedom from fear.
You do things your way Douglas and I will do things in my own fashion. I don't dictate to anyone and prefer not to be dicated to either. If I am wrong, I can live with that, its not the end of the world.
In answer to your question. My information came from the following books:- Woodland Conservation and Management (Second edition) by George Peterken,
The History of the British Countryside, by Oliver Rackham,
Working with Nature, by Ronnie Rose.
These are some of the many worthy books in my extensive collection.
Environmental Conservation is my life and I am fortunate to have seen Nature in all its wonderment from the Gentoo Penguin colonies in the Falkland Islands, to the Polar Bears in the most Northern parts of Arctic Norway.
I like MarkH have a romantic view of deer and their place in European history, language, religion and folk lore.
I also subscribe to the 'Five Basic Freedoms’ in deer management,
which states:- All wild deer (ferae naturae-res nullius) should be guaranteed:
I. Freedom from malnutrition,
II. Freedom from discomfort and pain,
III. Freedom from injury and disease,
IV. Freedom to behave normally,
(to carry out their lives as nature intended),
V. Freedom from fear.
You do things your way Douglas and I will do things in my own fashion. I don't dictate to anyone and prefer not to be dicated to either. If I am wrong, I can live with that, its not the end of the world.
D
Douglas
Guest
Beowulf said:
I suppose the book reading passes the time away when your taking your breaks when driving the lorry.
I've read the three you mention, some few years ago now admittedly. I suggest that you might like to take a look at the following as a start.
The Conservation Handbook: Techniques in Research, Management and Policy. Conservation Science and Action. Managing Habitats for Conservation.Ecological Census Techniques all by William Sutherland. Wildlife Ecology, Conservation and Management by Tony Sinclair. Woodlands by Oliver Rackham. Management of Deer and Their Habitat: Principles and Methods,Wild Deer: Culling, Conservation and Management Deer Management: Improved Herds for Greater Profit all by A J De Nahlik. The Woodland Trust also have some fine publications.
Ronnie Rose is not alone in his views on Forestry Management, There have been some equally influential and skilled managers around. Some of whom I have had the pleasure of meeting including the man himself. Sadly he has suffered from ill health recently.
The 5 basic animal husbandry freedoms you refer to can not always be applied to wild deer. Simply because as the the term states they are wild and not domesticated. But they are worthy aims I agree.
Romanticism, sentimentality, worthy aspirations have no place in practical, factual, achievable, ecological, and environmental management. Knowledge, experience, aptitude and ability most certainly do.
Enjoy your global travels, and views of nature in all its glory.
D
Douglas
Guest
Mark
I don't blame you for steering clear of any of the forestry establishment grants. If you can afford to go it alone its always preferable.
Watch what you start secondary planting though.
Sorry to see Sedgeberrow under water I lived there for a time.
I don't blame you for steering clear of any of the forestry establishment grants. If you can afford to go it alone its always preferable.
Watch what you start secondary planting though.
Sorry to see Sedgeberrow under water I lived there for a time.
sikamalc
Administrator
Gentlemen. It appears to me that we have now come to the end of this thread?
I think Douglas, Beowolf and MarkH have all put valid points across. I think we are of the same mind that the shot and the placing of that shot sometimes under difficult conditions is of paramount importance for the welfare of the animal. And as I have already said this is what all hunters stalkers aspire too achieve for the benefit of the animal, not to do so is unethical.
But where we agree to differ is after the animal is grassed. And again we as individuals are welcome to our own right and opinions. Whether we are professionals employed by the FC or an estate deer keeper, or drive a lorry, it makes no difference, we all show our respect in our own way.
To me having taken many clients out over a good number of years, it is always a private moment, and as I have said before I have had on a number of occassions clients become quite emotional. Not because they have taken a deer, but as Rob mentioned, being in a wild place, the weather, the wildlife you have seen during the hunt, it all plays a part. I have had two clients who have mentioned their parents passing and they have done it for them, this is not uncommon, but again a private moment, which you must respect.
As stalkers or deer managers we all have respect, no matter which way you look at it, both before and after the shot.
I think Douglas, Beowolf and MarkH have all put valid points across. I think we are of the same mind that the shot and the placing of that shot sometimes under difficult conditions is of paramount importance for the welfare of the animal. And as I have already said this is what all hunters stalkers aspire too achieve for the benefit of the animal, not to do so is unethical.
But where we agree to differ is after the animal is grassed. And again we as individuals are welcome to our own right and opinions. Whether we are professionals employed by the FC or an estate deer keeper, or drive a lorry, it makes no difference, we all show our respect in our own way.
To me having taken many clients out over a good number of years, it is always a private moment, and as I have said before I have had on a number of occassions clients become quite emotional. Not because they have taken a deer, but as Rob mentioned, being in a wild place, the weather, the wildlife you have seen during the hunt, it all plays a part. I have had two clients who have mentioned their parents passing and they have done it for them, this is not uncommon, but again a private moment, which you must respect.
As stalkers or deer managers we all have respect, no matter which way you look at it, both before and after the shot.
Thank you Douglas for the future reading list, presently I am reading 'The Science of Overabundance, deer ecology and population management' Edited by William J.McShea, H.Brian Underwood and John H.Rappole. Yes I do read these books whilst on my taco breaks, I opted out of full time conservation work when I realised that it didn't pay enough to support my interests or put wall paper on the walls of my charming but derelict tied cottage.
I respect your views and opinions Douglas but as I have stated, I have my opinions and my way of doing things, thats me. I work hard enough and long enough to be allowed to express them I feel. I hope we can agree to disagree on this matter and move on.
Once I have passed my Open University Degree in Conservation Studies I will return to full time Conservation work where I am at my most happiest. Although from the driving seat of a lorry travelling around the countryside, I see the changing of the seasons and a great many deer!
The reason why I respect Ronnie Rose so much is because he was telling people what we should be doing forty years ago when people where not listening. He also has a deep passion and pride in his country and its nature that comes out of his writings. The same can be said of my favourite author John Buchan the celebrated fiction writer. I like the powerful stirring emotions in these books. I once had a book called 'The Forester' it was about a Scot who worked along side his Ghillie father on a Great Highland Estate, he later joined the Glasgow Police, served in the 'Black Watch' in World War One and later went on to help form the Forestry Commisson. Would you know the name of this gentleman Douglas, I have lost the book and forgotten the authors name. I would like to know more about his work and life?
If I have got off on the wrong foot with you Douglas, I apologise. Unfortunately this site has experienced its fair number of trolls and wind up merchants in the past, its hard to work out sometimes if people are on the level. You obvivously do care about deer.
I respect your views and opinions Douglas but as I have stated, I have my opinions and my way of doing things, thats me. I work hard enough and long enough to be allowed to express them I feel. I hope we can agree to disagree on this matter and move on.
Once I have passed my Open University Degree in Conservation Studies I will return to full time Conservation work where I am at my most happiest. Although from the driving seat of a lorry travelling around the countryside, I see the changing of the seasons and a great many deer!
The reason why I respect Ronnie Rose so much is because he was telling people what we should be doing forty years ago when people where not listening. He also has a deep passion and pride in his country and its nature that comes out of his writings. The same can be said of my favourite author John Buchan the celebrated fiction writer. I like the powerful stirring emotions in these books. I once had a book called 'The Forester' it was about a Scot who worked along side his Ghillie father on a Great Highland Estate, he later joined the Glasgow Police, served in the 'Black Watch' in World War One and later went on to help form the Forestry Commisson. Would you know the name of this gentleman Douglas, I have lost the book and forgotten the authors name. I would like to know more about his work and life?
If I have got off on the wrong foot with you Douglas, I apologise. Unfortunately this site has experienced its fair number of trolls and wind up merchants in the past, its hard to work out sometimes if people are on the level. You obvivously do care about deer.
D
Douglas
Guest
Beowulf said:
I believe that one refers to predominately to North American deer species
Beowulf said:
I didn't realise the OU did such things. I can't see it listed on their prospectus. Good luck with it
Yes Douglas the book mainly deals with the Whitetail Deer population in North America but it also has great relevance to deer management in this country, as it highlights the various atitudes towards deer hunting. It also picks holes in the arguments of both Anti's and Stalkers. Quite entertaining even though the title is a bit dry.
The OU course is Environmental Studies (code B19). Its hard work going back to school.
The OU course is Environmental Studies (code B19). Its hard work going back to school.
D
Douglas
Guest
Beowulf said:Yes Douglas the book mainly deals with the Whitetail Deer population in North America but it also has great relevance to deer management in this country, as it highlights the various atitudes towards deer hunting. It also picks holes in the arguments of both Anti's and Stalkers. Quite entertaining even though the title is a bit dry.
The OU course is Environmental Studies (code B19). Its hard work going back to school.
Enjoy your read. I find some of the Us based stuff of little use over here.
Had a look at the OU course, A strange choice for some one mad keen on getting into conservation work. Surely one of the more relevant distance learning degree course would have been a better choice. How long have you been working on it?
MarkH
Well-Known Member
Just as a diversion there are a couple of fantastic books to read about conservation. Ok American but the concopts are very relevant.
A sand county almanac - Aldo Leopold 1948
Game management - Aldo Leopold - 1938
The Land Ethic
“The land ethic simply enlarges the boundaries of the community to include soils, waters, plants, and animals, or collectively: the land.”- Aldo Leopold
Published in 1949 as the finale to A Sand County Almanac, Leopold’s ‘Land Ethic’ defined a new relationship between people and nature and set the stage for the modern conservation movement.
Leopold understood that ethics direct individuals to cooperate with each other for the mutual benefit of all. One of his philosophical achievements was the idea that this ‘community’ should be enlarged to include non-human elements such as soils, waters, plants, and animals, “or collectively: the land.”
“That land is a community is the basic concept of ecology, but that land is to be loved and respected is an extension of ethics.”
This recognition, according to Leopold, implies individuals play an important role in protecting and preserving the health of this expanded definition of a community.
“A land ethic, then, reflects the existence of an ecological conscience, and this in turn reflects a conviction of individual responsibility for the health of land.”
Central to Leopold’s philosophy is the assertion to “quit thinking about decent land use as solely an economic problem.” While recognizing the influence economics have on decisions, Leopold understood that ultimately, our economic well being could not be separated from the well being of our environment. Therefore, he believed it was critical that people have a close personal connection to the land.
“We can be ethical only in relation to something we can see, feel, understand, love, or otherwise have faith in.”
Mark
A sand county almanac - Aldo Leopold 1948
Game management - Aldo Leopold - 1938
The Land Ethic
“The land ethic simply enlarges the boundaries of the community to include soils, waters, plants, and animals, or collectively: the land.”- Aldo Leopold
Published in 1949 as the finale to A Sand County Almanac, Leopold’s ‘Land Ethic’ defined a new relationship between people and nature and set the stage for the modern conservation movement.
Leopold understood that ethics direct individuals to cooperate with each other for the mutual benefit of all. One of his philosophical achievements was the idea that this ‘community’ should be enlarged to include non-human elements such as soils, waters, plants, and animals, “or collectively: the land.”
“That land is a community is the basic concept of ecology, but that land is to be loved and respected is an extension of ethics.”
This recognition, according to Leopold, implies individuals play an important role in protecting and preserving the health of this expanded definition of a community.
“A land ethic, then, reflects the existence of an ecological conscience, and this in turn reflects a conviction of individual responsibility for the health of land.”
Central to Leopold’s philosophy is the assertion to “quit thinking about decent land use as solely an economic problem.” While recognizing the influence economics have on decisions, Leopold understood that ultimately, our economic well being could not be separated from the well being of our environment. Therefore, he believed it was critical that people have a close personal connection to the land.
“We can be ethical only in relation to something we can see, feel, understand, love, or otherwise have faith in.”
Mark
Sounds good reading Mark, is it still in print?
Douglas, I've only recently got into the OU and find that they are very supportive, they also arrange meet and great sessions with other OU students on the same course. They also arrange social events.
I attempted the Royal Forestry Society's distance learning scheme, but gave up. Everything about it was troublesome and communications were very slow.
Douglas, I've only recently got into the OU and find that they are very supportive, they also arrange meet and great sessions with other OU students on the same course. They also arrange social events.
I attempted the Royal Forestry Society's distance learning scheme, but gave up. Everything about it was troublesome and communications were very slow.
D
Douglas
Guest
Beowulf said:
OU meet and greet sessions and social events? I thought a large number of their students were currently spending time incarcerate in a variety of establishments around the country whilst at Her Majesty's pleasure.
The RFS communication system is not renowned for its speed. Where were you based?
D
Douglas
Guest
Eskimo would traditionally, send someone from a returning hunting party a head who would run toward a village and jump in the air. By the way or style of the jump, the village would know whether the hunting party was successful.
Now we could all start doing that when coming home from stalking. Sounds a lot more fun than silent prays, slapping the arse of shot beasts or standing around lines of dead animals surrounded by fir boughs.
At least the wife would now whether to get the frying pan out and heated up for the liver and bacon or not.
Now we could all start doing that when coming home from stalking. Sounds a lot more fun than silent prays, slapping the arse of shot beasts or standing around lines of dead animals surrounded by fir boughs.
At least the wife would now whether to get the frying pan out and heated up for the liver and bacon or not.
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